TREMELLEN

[Cornish Terrier]

The TREMELLEN (var.) name may be of interest to a number of members.

Prompting this thread is the following abstract of a Will that is part of Kathie's original Cornish Probate Abstracts (K-W):-

JAMES TREMELLING, tinner, of St. Erth

written: 10 Jun 1769
proved: 7 May 1771

daughter: ELIZABETH w/o WILLIAM TREWHELA 2 L. 2 sh.
daughter: ANN w/o PETER COSETHA 2 L. 2 sh.
daughter: MARGARET TREMELLING 2 L. 2 sh.
son: JAMES TREMELLING all the rest & executor
wife: JANE

witnesses: JOHN ROWE, CHARLES BLIGHT JUR.

Vol. 11, p. 169
..........

(Of course) it is of most interest to myself because one of his daughters married William TREWHELA but his is more about the other married daughter Ann.

I have now found that some correction is required and have this afternoon done a little searching with the results following.

According to the 'abstract' Ann TREMELLING married Peter COSETHA but what I have found today indicates that parts of James TREMELLING's Will must be difficult to read.

The surname of Ann's husband should, in fact, be HUSSEY!

Before continuiing I should say that, as yet, I know nothing more of James TREMELLING other than:-

James TREMELLING m. Jane RICHARDS 17th February 1728 at Constantine

James TREMELLING buried 7th July 1770 at St Erth

Of the four children named in the Will I have found baptisms for only two:-

Elizabeth bp. 28th December 1729 St Erth
James bp. 30th May 1731 St Erth

Elizabeth married William TREWHELA 23rd February 1754 and she was then described as 'of KEA'

No marriage yet found for James or Margaret so I will turn my attention to Ann.

Peter HUSSEY married Anne TREMELLIN, of St Earth 14th December 1765 by Licence

I have so far found four children to Peter and Ann:-

Christopher bp. 20th April 1766 St Mabyn
James bp. 23rd July 1769 Egloshayle
William bp. 13th October 1771 Egloshayle
Jennifer bp. 8th January 1775 St Mabyn

Get around a bit this lot!

Peter HUSSEY bp. 17th March 1730 St Mabyn s/o Peter and Lovedy

Peter HUSSEY m. Loveday BRAY 31st December 1727 Cardinham

And there seem also to be children of Peter and Loveday at St Tudy.

I will go ahead and update my TREWHELA information but would be interested in comment and discussion from anyone with interests in the TREMELLIN family, particularly with this particular family.

[gandolf]

Christopher bp. 20th April 1766 St Mabyn
James bp. 23rd July 1769 Egloshayle
William bp. 13th October 1771 Egloshayle
Jennifer bp. 8th January 1775 St Mabyn

Get around a bit this lot!

Not so far as you might think. From a quick look at a map there is only about 4 km between the two locations, and therefore they are almost certainly adjoining parishes.

Possibly the family lived between the two villages and simply used whichever church was more convenient at the time.

Or if they did move, it was not far at all.

[Cornish Terrier]

But they still 'got around' a bit. ;D

And St Tudy, St Mabyn and Egloshayle are some distance from Probus, even further from Kenwyn and Kea and further yet from St Erth!

James TREMELLEN was buried at St Erth in 1770 yet one daughter was 'of St Earth' and married at Probus whilst the other, Elizabeth, was 'of Kea' when she married at Kenwyn.

Good to have some feedback though.

[gandolf]

Oops, only scanned over the note, and missed the other references higher up.

Mind you, it does provide further evidence of a thought that has been in the back of my mind for a while now.

Despite the fact that a great many people never moved more than a few miles from their homes in West Penwith, even before the industrial revolution in the mid 1800's, there is fairly clear evidence that there was a small percentage of the population that did move around considerably more than the average.

I have seen a number of cases on this board and elsewhere where the only apparent explanation for a family's various events(births, marriages, deaths, children's births, etc) involves them moving about from northern Cornwall to West Penwith or on occasion the other way. Or perhaps into east Cornwall or western Devon.

Although I have no proof at this time, I can't help wondering if it was due to the landholding gentry, such as the Arundells and others, who induced tenants and tradesmen to move about?

[donne]

Although I have no proof at this time, I can't help wondering if it was due to the landholding gentry, such as the Arundells and others, who induced tenants and tradesmen to move about?

I would have that mobility depended very much on occupation. Tinners I would imagine would have to be fairly mobile since tin streaming sites would be rapidly exhausted. Hard rock miners would have a more stable occupation but even there mines would eventually become uneconomic. On the other hand, those with occupations tied to the land - yeomen or husbandmen - I would have thought would tend to stay put.

By the way, I assume the name TREMELLING is in some way related to the tenement of Tremelling just about 1km south of St Erth Churchtown? (That's how it's spelt on modern maps - various other spelling in old leases)

[Cornish Terrier]

In some cases it would appear that the Estate Owner may have had something to do with 'some' of this mobility.

At one point some years ago I was searching for the marriage of a Robert CURNOW to Sarah but the only one I could find was at St Neot.

Robert was a Towednack man so it seemed that there was probably no connection - especially given that the CURNOW name could be found much further East.

But there were other details that crept into the scenario that suggested this must be the marriage.

Robert CURNOW m. Sarah ROGERS 10th November 1763 at St Neot

In 1767 Joseph s/o Robert and Sarah Curnow was buried at Towednack but no baptism could be found until:-

Joseph s/o Robert CURNOW bp. 1st October 1764 at St Neot

And then there was son Robert who married Catherine MARTIN at Towednack in 1790.

Could not find a baptism for him:-
Robert s/o Robert and Sarah CURNOW bp. 7th January 1767 at St Pinnock

And then in 1769 son Joseph was baptised at Zennor.

From memory I think it may have been Lord Falmouth who held lands including parts of Towednack/Zennor and St Neot.

And Robert CURNOW was a 'sojourner, tinner'.

As for the TREMELLING name - I would think certainly that you are correct and that the origins are somewhere about that little place near St Erth.

The name certainly seems more prominent at St Erth than anywhere else when looking at earlier PRs.

My problem with old James is that I cannot, so far, find a baptism for him.

Both he and Jane RICHARDS were 'of St Erth' when they married at Constantine.

Will look more at James a little later.

[kerthen]

I share your interest in TREMELLING/TREMELLEN in St Erth as I have an Ann TREMELLING who i(according to the IGI) married John PELLAR/PELLOW in St Erth in 1740. I have done no work on Ann or her husband, but do agree that the surname seems to indicate some early connection with the farm TREMELLING in St Erth (they appear to be living in this general area judging from who their children married).

[Cornish Terrier]

Nice to have you back and hope that some interest might be sparked here as the TREMELLEN (var.) name is certainly interesting.

More so for some than others of course but most interesting all the same.

For myself it seems another example of connections between TREWHELLA (var.) families from about or West of the Hayle with those who seem to originate a little (or lot) further East.

The marriage of John PELLOW (sic.) to Anne TREMELLIN occurs in Phillimore with no indication of either party being from elsewhere or being anything other than single persons when married.

I have a list of six children for this couple with the most 'prominent' name being Benjamin who was baptised at St Erth 9th January 1746 and buried at St Erth 7th September 1818 at the age of 72.

With PELLOW (var.) being another name that sneaks into my own family interests this could become a very useful conversation.

Not only that - but St Erth is very interesting with many references to people from that Parish being married as far West as Sennen/St Levan.

And 'Kirton Wood' (Kerthen and var.) is very much on the border of St Erth and Crowan. (Says he working from memory and too lazy - read worn out - to check the map properly).

In effect, as far as PRs are concerned, we are entering an area for which there is very much a void in available transcriptions.

I will be looking forward to more comments and discussion.

[kerthen]

John Pellow/Pellar seems to be the one who died at St Erth and was buried 26 Aug 1782. There is an Ann Pellow?Pellar who died 26 Sep 1783. While there are no ages listed, it's a good idea to keep them in mind as potentially this couple.

I have probably the same 6 children you do:
Mary, bap 16 Aug 1741
John, bap 1 Jan 1743/44
Benjamin, bap 9 Jan 1746/47
Jane, bap 19 Mar 1748/49
Honour, bap 29 Aug 1753
Elizabeth, bap 27 Mar 1757

The one of particular interest to me is Jane, who married William Barker, 28 Jul 1781 at St Erth. William appears to have been part of the Barker family who were in the area of St Erth that bordered with Gwinear, near St Erth Praze. There were two William Barkers born in the Gwinear and St Erth area who could potentially be Jane's husband. I'm still working on gathering evidence to see what distinguishing factors I can turn up about them.

In any case, yes, they are not that far from Kerthen Wood, and Jane Pellow/Pellar and William Barker had a daughter Elizabeth who married William Ralph. Elizabeth and William Ralph are the parents of Honor Ralph who married Stephen Woolcock.

[Cornish Terrier]

Although I have not as yet recorded those burials I do have much of this information in my database.

I have the William BARKER marriage but not the connection of his wife to John and Anne PELLOW.

(This work is something I did 8 years ago and it was soon after this that some serious 'side-tracking' occurred being a time when I lost my house and had to relocate.)

It will be interesting to see if there is a link to the following:-

Matthew PHILLIPS of Tredrea, St Erth married Elizabeth RALF at St Hilary 27th November 1693 (She was daughter of James.)

Sampson QUICK married Mary RALPH (born Helston) 6th February 1821 at St Ives

[kerthen]

The RALPHs of St Erth, Crowan and St Hilary are a much muddled bunch and I have still not entirely sorted them out. However, yes, the Elizabeth RALF who was the daughter of James is most likely the granddaughter of Peter RALPH alias CHEPYE who was a tenant at Trelease in St Hilary.

Peter RALPH left a will which was probated at the PCC in 1658, which I have a copy of, and in which he names his wife, Agnes, daughter, Jane/Jone and six sons, Francis, James, William, Joseph, Alexander and Peter. The records are thin enough at St Hilary at St Erth that it's hard to sort them out -- and there are no baptisms for any of them that I have found.

The "Chepye" alias seems to suggest that Peter or his forebears may have come to St Hilary from Gunwalloe parish where there is a Chepye tenement, part of Winnianton Manor, which does have RALPHs among its tenants, including a Thomas RALPH who was reeve there in the late 17th century.

The farm at Trelease (the part of it Peter RALPH leased as subtenant) was leased to Thomas CLIES. One of the closest farms to Chepye in Gunwalloe is Clies Farm. If this is significant or just coincidence, I don't know yet. But it's an avenue I'm pursuing. Thomas Clies, the main tenant, appears to have been in the Penzance/Gulval/Marazion area at various times during Peter RALPH's tenancy.

My speculation at this point (and let me stress that it is speculation, not hard and fast proved on the basis of even indirect evidence, but more a hypothesis based on what I believe to be evident at present) is that Peter RALPH's son, William, MAY BE the father of four children baptised at St Erth -- the eldest John, was listed as son of William CHAPYE, bap 1664, then Elyzabeath, bap 1665, Mary, bap 1668, and Philip, bap 1671.

I don't have a marriage for Elyzabeath, but Mary married widower Charles POLMEAR at St Hilary in 1711. Charles had two sons by his previous marriage to Alice Hoskin. John RALPH (baptised CHAPYE) married Ann KING in 1704 at St Hilary, and had two daughters, Anne in 1705 and Elizabeth in 1710. I haven't found marriages that I can tie to these two women. They may have died young. They may have married out of the parish. An Anne RALPH died at St Hilary in 1742. She may be either John's wife or John's daughter.

Youngest son of William RALPH, Philip, bap 1671, married Martha HARRIS in 1707 in St Erth. Philip and Martha were parents of:
William, bap 8 Mar 1709 in St Erth
John, bap 30 Nov 1712 in St Erth
Philip, bap 11 Jun 1721 in St Erth
Jone, bap 31 May 1724 in St Erth
of course there may have been other children between John and Philip, but if so, their baptisms have not survived and records of them have not been identified either.

The reason I have put John RALPH alias CHAPYE in this family is because in the 1740s a John RALPH is tenant of lands at Kissing Close Penponds or Pennanponds which is, as much as I can tell, close to Relubbus. Will check for the film number next time I'm at the FHC.

About 1742, the land he is taxed on is divided in half and on the other half we find a Philip RALPH who would have turned 21 that year (the youngest son of Philip RALPH and Martha HARRIS). His father is elsewhere in St Erth, so it's not him.

At first I thought the John who was at Kissing Close could be the middle son of Philip and Martha, but death records indicate he died in May 1730 at St Erth (listed as son of Philip and Martha, so no question who it is who died). The other John who would be close to this younger Philip would be his nephew, since he didn't have sons of his own, and since his brother's oldest son, William, a blacksmith, was already well established on lands left to William the blacksmith's son, Thomas RALPH, by Thomas's mother's apparent aunt, Ann MAN. These lands were on the edge of Kerthen Wood (the Relubbus end) and not that far from where Philip and John would have been.

The land that John shared with Philip becomes Philip's entirely when John dies in 1750. From then on Philip is the only one taxed on that land.

These RALPHs lived in the St Hilary/St Erth border area for some time. I haven't followed Philip RALPH (the younger) and his descendants beyond about 1800 when they were still in the St Erth and St Hilary and Relubbus area for the most part.

I have followed the descendants of his brother William, bap 1709, and his wife, Honour STEPHENS, in an effort to sort them out and distinguish them from the other RALPHs who also ended up living in Crowan at Pauls Green and Carzise and Western Downs and Kerthen Wood at the same time.

But none of that probably belongs on the TREMELLEN thread. I'm not sure this does, either. But I can cut and paste it and move it wherever you want me to. Or you can, if you think it's a good idea.

Would welcome further discussion on these people if you care to continue sorting!

[Cornish Terrier]

Very well put together information.

And yes I would like to continue discussion (or at least have discussion continued) on this.

St Erth seems to have been some sort of 'hub' and and any information discussed here could prove quite helpful to many people.

It may be that I will be relatively quiet in the coming days or even the coming weeks but I will need to ask patience.

There are signs today that Victoria's Fire Season might be about to take a turn for the worst and if that happens I could end up very busy as well as anywhere in the State.

We are hoping for the best but ....

Anyone with an interest in the TREMELLEN family and any others mentioned here - please get involved.

I will contribute as well as I can until such time as things quieten down.

[kerthen]

Here's a bit of speculation for you, Ian.

You noted that there was a Benjamin among the children of John Pellar/Pelloe/Pellow and Ann Tremelling.

There does not appear to be a baptism for either John P or his wife Ann (who were married in 1740), and thus no indication who their particular immediate family is.

However there is a Benjamin Tremellin bapt in 1706 to Anthony and Ann Tremellin in St Erth. There are two other children born to this family, William, 1698, and Elizabeth, 1702; but no Ann apparent.

Benjamin himself marries in 1733 in St Erth to Ann King and has a daughter, Amy, before he dies in 1735.

A couple of possibilities exist:
1) Ann Tremellin is a younger sister of Benjamin and is commemorating him with the name of her second son (first one being John after her husband); or

2) Ann is the widow of Benjamin Tremellin and is marrying John Pellow as her second husband, five years after the death of her first, and names her second son after her first husband (it was not uncommon to do so at that time. I have other instances in my family where a child in a second marriage is named after the dead spouse in the first).

Of course it might be neither. But I think it's worth considering as there were, as you hinted, not many Benjamins thick on the ground. So when one turns up, it's likely to be significant.

[kerthen]

Further to the speculation above, it may be significant that John and Ann do not name a child Ann. If Ann's first child, with Benjamin, was called Amy (a nickname for Ann at the time), she would already have a daughter by that name.

Also, she names one of her daughters Honour, and the Anne King who married Benjamin Tremellin was apparently the daughter of Humphrey KING and Honour COURTES of St Hilary, bap there in 1713.

[Cornish Terrier]

I most certainly agree and your hypothesis is very reasonable.

And I also have seen a number of instances where a child of a second marriage is named for the deceased spouse of the previous marriage.

Something more to consider - a search of IGI (All Counties) for baptisms of 'Benjamin TREMELLIN' produces only TEN results!

The IGI is merely a tool and is lacking in many entries but, if based on a percentage of even 20% or as much as 50% as being missing, this figure is quite significant.

On those percentages of potentially missing entries we are looking at a maximum of only fifteen baptisms for someone named Benjamin TREMELLIN.

In fact the total recorded in IGI is much less when taking into account the following:-

bp. 18 Dec 1706 St Erth - Three entries
bp. 19 Aug 1810 Wendron or Stithians - Two entries

This actually leaves us with Seven entries and even one of those is an 'estimated birth' and probably based on a later marriage.

We therefore have only SIX recorded baptisms for this name!

Your theory becomes even more sound! ;D

BTW - Amy d/o Benjamin and Ann TREMELLIN married William HONEYCHURCH at St Erth 3rd November 1755.

From what I can tell they had eigh children with the last four being Ann, Benjamin, Ann and Benjamin. (The first Ann died at the age of about 18 months and the first Benjamin only one week.)

Further of interest from IGI.

Try searching for the name Benjamin PELLOW using 'all events'.

This provides only 40 results which includes Burials and Marriages.
Now search for 'baptisms only' and the result is 23, again with duplicated and 'guesstimated' entries.

Apart from one lone entry at Lezant in 1709 the very earliest entry for a baptism of a Benjamin PELLEW (sic.) is 9th January 1746 which happens to be the son of John and Anne (nee TREMELLIN) PELLOW.

That would appear to be further evidence that your 'hypothesis' may just be absolutely correct!

CT