Post by cornishmaid on Jul 4, 2007 15:55:10 GMT -5
Ok... think I follow you here. There are certainly a lot of ifs and that's for sure, but as Martha Curnow was a name carried down through the grandchildren and greatgrandchildren, then this certainly seems suggestive that we are on the right track with Martha Curnow marrying John Berriman.
John B and Martha married in 26 April 1818, and the 2 children I found were baptised in 1818 and 1824. So, there may well be others in between which I haven't found yet.
The baptisms I found for John Berriman and Jane at Towednack were: Eliza 16 July 1826 PB John 12 April 1829 Elizabeth 12 April 1829 Matthew 24 December 1831 Mary Jane 18 September 1836 Elizabeth Jane 13 August 1837 Grace Martins 6 December 1840
John was listed as "Miner" against all these baptisms.
Am of the same opinion as you about John "probably" being the son of James Berriman and Christian Sampson.
Will sort a few things here, then have a further look at what we've got. But I'd say we're doing quite well between us
I've got so many brick walls I could build a Mansion!
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 4, 2007 17:29:52 GMT -5
I reckon we are doing extremely well but it was your query that put us on this track and pointed out some errors that I had in my database. And it has now brought 'tassiekiwi' into our group and I am sure he will enjoy it and provide whatever he can to help as he can.
Just a brief glance of the children you show for John and Jane at Towednack throws in something of interest.
The one name that really caught my eye was that of the child baptised in 1840 - Grace MARTINS Berriman.
I immediately thought that it might be a clue in itself and I am thinking the Martin/s family must somehow be involved here.
Before I finish this note - I have had a quick look at the Clarinda Nicholas thing and can find nothing at the moment.
Stated birthplace in the 1851 Census was St Ives but I don't have copies of those PR's and the IGI gives me 'b____r all' (as we say in the Colonies )
As regards the problem of which James Berr()man married who - I believe I have solved that problem and have sent an email to 'tassiekiwi' because it is part of his family.
I now have to sort things out properly and work out the best way to explain things without 'going over the top' with stuff.
Right now I believe I can safely say that the James Berryman who married Clarinda Nicholas in 1813 was baptised at Towednack 2nd August 1789 as son of James Berriman and Christian (nee Sampson).
I had previously had this man as the fellow who married Charity Martins at Towednack 22nd July 1815 but the information in the Census proved me incorrect.
In fact, the James Berr()man who married Charity Martins was baptised at Towednack 26th April 1795 as son of Andrew Berryman and Phillis (nee NOALL) and the 1841 and 1851 Census shows them in Redruth.
This particular James had been assigned the marriage to Mary BARKLA at St Agnes 26th October 1822 and, at the time all those years ago, it seemed a reasonable and logical decision to arrive at based on the available information at the time.
A view of the 1841 and 1851 Census tonight again shows that this was not the case. In fact this James was born at Perranzabuloe about 1800/1 according to the 1851 Census and in both Census years they appeared in that Parish.
Now I might have a rest from this for a little while to clear the brain again before I start altering information in my main database.
Plus I have just devoured a PASTY from the local Bakery. (It was shaped like the Cornish Pasty and had some nice ingredients but it was only about one third the size of a genuine Cornish Pasty and cost four dollars.) It did taste okay though and I don't think I left a crumb but it was furtunate that I purchased some 'afters'.
Have just finished one very, very nice apple and blueberry turnover which has left me drooling for more.
And I reckon I shall very shortly have a go at the Apple Turnover I bought which looks extremely delightful as well.
We were talking about 'berry' history ... weren't we ..
Will hopefully have more to had here in the next day or so.
Post by cornishmaid on Jul 4, 2007 17:53:49 GMT -5
;D You is a one!! Mm, sounds ansum! In fact, berry berry good!
Not having much luck here either. But, was just having a look through my Towednack baptisms and found a "CHRISTIAN SAMPSON BERRIMAN" baptised on 19 November 1830 to William & Wilmot Berriman. Children of William and Wilmot range from 1814 to 1836, and two of the other children (bapt in 1827 and 1834) have the middle name of "Michell". Thought I'd make a note of it as it may relate to something later on .
By the way, when do we think Clarinda Nicholas was born?
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 4, 2007 18:46:29 GMT -5
Hmmmm - you seem to be having a little 'confusing' fun with all of this m'dear.
Well let me help you out with this little tidbit - Towednack was home to two families of William and Wilmot Berr()man.
Now - before you go around damaging walls with your head (ouch!!) part of the problem can be solved rather painlessley.
William BERRYMAN m. Wilmot EDWARDS 1st August 1813 at Towednack
This William was son of John Berriman and Mary (nee Roberts). Wilmot was daughter of Christopher Edwards and Margery (nee CURNOW) and these are nearly all Towednack people.
So any children baptised to William and Wilmot between 1814 and 1822 are the children from the 1814 marriage.
1823 poses a problem.
William bp. 12th October 1823 is attributed to the 'Edwards' clan. James bp. 9th March 1823 is attributed to the 'Michell' clan.
This may seem a little strange and, to my knowledge, is not yet 'set in concrete' - however the William who married Wilmot Michell was son of JAMES and Christian so it is logical that the son James would fit here.
Bottom line at the moment with these families is, except for those with Michell in their names, from 1823 onwards things are a little difficult.
Will need to pursue this further sometime other than right now.
However there is something interesting here - Did the name ROSETTA appear in part of our recent conversation on these families? (For some reason it rings a bell.)
Well, just in case, there was a 'Rosetta' born about 1830 who is currently listed as d/o William Berryman and Wilmot (nee EDWARDS).
I am absolutely worn out now so will need to get to bed.
But before I go - that Apple Turnover was absolutely delicious!
And finally - Clarinda NICHOLAS, according to the 1851 Census was born at St Ives c.1794.
Must go now but will try to take another look at this later tonight.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 5, 2007 8:47:16 GMT -5
Would appreciate it if you could supply me with the baptism dates for all those William and Wilmot children. I have, from the 1851 Census, proved four sons to the 'Edwards' side of things - Christopher, John, Andrew and Thomas - as they were all living at Brega, Towednack with their widowed mother.
Any other Berr()man baptisms and also burials would be handy if you are able to do it.
The William who married Wilmot Edwards was buried at Towednack 29th October 1834.
The other problem I have here at the moment is the 1841 Census.
I have notes suggesting that I found this family in 1841 but I am blowed if I can find them now.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 5, 2007 9:27:11 GMT -5
Have just located the family of William and Wilmot (Michell) Berryman in the 1841 Census - under the name BERRYANN.
Another variation in this Census for some of the Berr()man's looks to be - BENJMAN.
To find them I ended up simply ignoring name and age fields and just use County CORNWALL Parish TOWEDNACK which brought up 967 entries for that Parish. It was then a matter of just working through each page to find what I wanted.
Chytoden, Towednack 1841 William Berryman, 37, tin miner Willmot, 38 James, 18 Margret, 13 Matthew, 7 William, 5 John, 2
This proves that the 1823 baptism of James does indeed belong to this family which means the baptism for William in the same year almost certainly belongs to the 'Edwards' side.
Will pursue this a little more and advise further findings in a supplementary note.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 5, 2007 13:47:48 GMT -5
Have now found another part of the problem (unfortunately not John Berriman) but later on in the picture.
The Toman side started to intrigue me so I 'went on the hunt'.
Tried looking for Peter Toman to no avail but then found, in the index for the 1891 Census, a 'JOHN H TOMAN' at St Ives.
Clicked on this Image and had a close look and, guess what, it actually reads 'Peter H Toman'. He is there with wife Mary and a number of children with the surname of ROBERTS who have a collective note beside them stating they are 'children of a previous husband'.
With them, of course, is mother-in-law Catherine Uren who is now 77 and states birthplace again as St Ives.
I can now see where a lot of the confusion has come from.
Think I might nearly call it quits for tonight and go cook something to eat and then watch a movie before bed.
Normally a day off but have to go back to work again to cover the Boss.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 5, 2007 14:44:53 GMT -5
Thanks for that information Genie but I would think it is not the right person, unfortunately. Clarinda was not totally uncommon in the Nicholas (var.) family but the one we are looking for 'should' be at, or very close to, St Ives by all accounts.
Will keep this entry in mind though as all clues will help.
Working from IGI only (Grrr.) I can find only three likely candidates:-
Clarinda d/o Nicholas Nicholas and Duens bn. 13 Jun 1792 and bp. at Ludgvan 01 Jul 1792
Clarinda d/o Wm. Nicholas and Mary bp. 23 Jun 1793 at Ludgvan
Clarinda d/o Richard Nicholas and Phillis bp. 01 May 1796 at Ludgvan
With the amount of children born to James and Clarinda (Nicholas) Berryman it is surprising to see that there was only the one son - James - who appears to have been named after his father and grandfather. The remaining 11 children were all girls which gives us a little bit of an advantage in deciding who might be Clarinda's parents.
There is no Duens and there is no Phillis so I am fairly confident of 'doing away with' the first and third entries above.
Mary was the second child (and second daughter) which suggests the possibility the second entry above might be the correct one.
The third child was Christian who would appear to be named after James' mother.
But the big stumbling block appears to be the first daughter who was named CORDELIA.
If we can track that one down .....
IGI shows nothing to help on that one for Nicholas or for Berryman (sic.).
BUT - if we look for a Cordelia SAMPSON then we have some possibilities in 1772 and 1781 at St Ives.
NOPE - both had Nicholas and Rachel as parents.
Run out of ideas for now so it must be time to eat and watch a movie.
Thanks for all the hard work you are putting in on this one.
The baptisms at Towednack for children of the 2 different William and Wilmot Berrimans are:
Wilmot 3 April 1814 * Mary 1 October 1815 ** Christopher 31 May 1817 Ann 12 September 1819 Jane 30 November 1821 James 9 March 1823 William 12 October 1823 John 11 November 1826 Margaret Michell 23 September 1827 Andrew 17 May 1829 Christian Sampson 19 November 1830 Thomas 13 May 1832 Matthew Michell 11 May 1834 William 13 September 1836 ** John 30 December 1838
* Father listed as Mason. All the rest of the baptisms had father listed as a Miner. ** Name as "BerrYman". All the rest listed as "BerrIman".
There was also a Rosetta Berriman baptised on 1 August 1831 to Wilmot Berriman, Single Woman.
As regards William Uren, when you say:
"I suspect he was actually the Grandson of 'old' William and, therefore, son of Samuel jnr who appears to have been born about 1835 and married Elizabeth Nankervis at Halsetown in 1861."
I don't quite understand. Which Samuel jnr?
I was also a bit dubious of William being Samuel and Catherine's child, given her age at his birth. But, it definitely says in the 1871 census that William was Samuel Uren's brother-in-law, and in the 1881 census where Mary Roberts (nee Uren) was Head of the household, it says Catherine is her mother and William is her brother.
I have just found a copy of Mary Uren/Roberts/Toman obituary. The mourners include Mr W Uren, brother.
If you think it would be helpful I could type up the obituary a bit later.
Now, as for Clarinda Nicholls etc, I can only find the same as has already been noted in this thread. Will keep searching though. As for Cordelia... I found a John Berryman baptised in St Agnes on 15 September 1825 to Atwell Berryman and Cordelia. It would seem that Cordelia was Cordelia Allen. Atwell and Cordelia married on 18 January 1823 at Perranzabuloe. Nothing to do with anything most probably, as we need something a bit earlier.
Right, will have to leave it there for the moment.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 6, 2007 12:51:00 GMT -5
Don't worry about thanking me too much m'dear. Our dear Administrator 'nominated me' as a 'resident expert' which is somewhat of an accolade but it is, as I have said, because of your initial query that we have been able to get this far. That query forced me to look at old stuff I had been working on and 'filed away' for a while because I had nowhere else to go with it at the time. Now we have found, and corrected, problems with three James Berr()mans and can potentially sort out quite a few other areas of concern that I have had on the backburner for a few years with this and a few other families.
Ok - I will send you a PM.
And then I will take a look at the bulk of your latest note and see what else I might be able to do.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 6, 2007 15:14:54 GMT -5
I will start with 'OOPS' because one of my previous postings was slightly in error. Where I mentioned the 1851 Census for Ladydowns, Towednack it was actually - 1841 - so I hope I have not confused too many.
And now it might be easier that I have printed out a copy of this latest posting to work from rather than trying to scroll up and down all the time.
From the start with William being a mason in 1814.
He is recorded as a 'labourer' when he was married in 1813 but that is really of little concern. Also of little concern is the spelling of the name - Berriman/Berryman - as it changed quite often during the records in almost all the families of this name I have dealt with.
Mary - I show the baptism date (from the Towednack PR) as 7th October.
Now, working down the list of baptisms provided I can say the following:-
Wilmot, (1814), Mary (1815), Christopher (1817), Ann (1819), Jane (1821, William (1823), John (1826), Andrew (1829) and Thomas (1832) all belong to the family of William Berryman and Wilmot (nee EDWARDS).
ROSETTA - mentioned afterwards (bp. 1831) is now obviously the daughter of Wilmot (1814).
This is obvious as, in this case, she was last mentioned in the family but was older than Thomas.
The next problem here is to locate Wilmot, her mother, in this Census.
On the other hand we need to consider the following Marriage entry from Lelant:-
14 Aug 1856 by banns Benjamin Tonkin Sarten full age miner Uny Lelant (father: Robert Sarten, laborer) Rosetta Berriman full age Uny Lelant (father: William Berriman, miner) Witnesses: Thomas Richards, Marianne Leacher
Is this the same Rosetta Berriman or was there another of the same name.
The first question that needs to be answered here is - what happened to Wilmot Berriman of 1814.
If Wilmot married it would be expected that she 'may' have married the father of her daughter. However Wilmot was not 'at home' in 1841 so it might be presumed she had died.
It is possible that Rosetta was 'orphaned' at an early age and was brought up by her grandparents 'as their own' and I have seen similar things before.
Let us have this one investigated a little further by you sleuths before we go much further with it.
And now for the other family of William Berriman and Wilmot (nee MICHELL).
The rest of the list can be confirmed by the 1841 Census as, I think, previously posted with the exception of Christian Sampson Berriman whom I suspect was deceased prior to the Census. These all belong to the family of William Berryman and Wilmot (nee MICHELL).
This William is now pretty much proved to be the son of James Berryman and Christian (nee SAMPSON) so things become somewhat obvious.
Now for the UREN part of proceedings.
'Goldarnit' - I may have made another mistake.
I think I should have noted 'Grandson of old 'SAMUEL' Uren.
16 Feb 1861 by Banns Samuel Uren 26 bachelor Labourer of Halse Town (Father: Samuel Uren, Shoemaker) Elizabeth Nankervis 21 spinster of Halse Town (Father: Henry Nankervis, Miner) Witnesses: Frank Treweeke, Catherine Quick
What I was trying to get at was that William may have been more likely to have been a son of the above marriage.
The above Samuel I would suspect was a son of 'old' Samuel's first marriage given the 'old feller' was a widower when he married Catherine Berriman..
(Crikey - hope I have made sense of what I am trying to say. )
As far as the 1881 Census entry is concerned - we must be in two minds. William 'may' have been the brother - but he may also have simply been 'named as brother' and may have been a nephew.
(If you check through the board you will find some discussion on this.)
The Obituary might be interesting so, yes, I would like a transcript - but only at your leisure! (and that is an order - 'at your leisure')
St Agnes/Perranzabuloe have been part of the last few days on this Berryman stuff. But no, that family is as yet to be connected and the discussions you have initiated have proved that one 'possible' connection in that area was incorrect.
The name Cordelia is certainly not unknown down West but I just, for now, figure out how that became the name of the first child of James and Clarinda.
Will leave it at that, do another quick check for queries and then think about food and sleep again. ;D