Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2008 3:07:54 GMT -5
Hello again
Richard Quick (bap 23/7/1809 at St Ives, son of Richard and Elizabeth Daniel) married Grace Bennatts Downing in 1842 in St Ives. Richard was a widower, so my first question is does anybody have a record of his first wife? I do not believe that the first marriage had any children.
I have not been able to find Richard, Grace and family in the 1851 census. There omission is possibly because I believe that their son Henry D. Quick may well have been born in America in 1850, but as the later children are once again born in Cornwall, it seems as if they returned to Cornwall.
My second question therefore is does anybody have access to a census in the USA of 1850 (if there is such a thing) and if they do, does Richard and Grace with children John Bennetts, Grace Osborn Bennetts and possibly Henry appear on it?
Lannanta
|
|
|
Post by gandolf on Nov 23, 2008 4:59:56 GMT -5
Lannanta The Mormans have a new web site that you might not yet have stumbled across called "FamilySearch Labs". It is located at: labs.familysearch.org/The website includes many sets of records and is growing all the time. Of interest to you in this regard is that it does include census data from 1850 - 1900 (and some later) for the US primarily as well as some other records. I did a quick check of the 1850 census and did not turn up Richard Quick & family. However there is a notation that not all records have been indexed so it is possible that the family is there somewhere - if you have some idea where to look. The original copies have been digitised and are available to look at if you want to take the time to work through them all!
|
|
|
Post by gandolf on Nov 23, 2008 5:13:47 GMT -5
I have Richard Quick marrying 4 Feb 1836 at St. Ives to his first wife Jane Gent. Jane was born circa 1814 and died apparently died May 1838 at St. Ives. Like you I have no evidence of any children - although it is just possible given the timing of about two years after marriage that Jane's death was as a result of pregnancy or childbirth (with either a stillborn or perhaps while Jane was in labour?) Also, I have Henry Downing (Harry) QUICK, son of Richard and Grace Bennett (nee Downing) Quick b. 15 Aug 1850 Grant County, WI, U.S.A. He apparently returned to the US as an adult and died 29 Dec 1909 Santa Cruz, CA, U.S.A. Henry (Harry) Quick married 25 Dec 1871 Sherman, MI, U.S.A. to Elizabeth Ellen BEST. She is interesting in that she was b. 15 Nov 1855 Creswick, Vic., Australia and died 22 Sep 1939 Santa Cruz, CA, U.S.A. There is descendants of this family in the US, apparently all in California. See: wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jimco&id=I1920
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2008 5:22:56 GMT -5
Evening Gandolf
Brilliant. I had started to look at the images but I could see that I wasn't getting far. You seem to have located the exact individual I was referring to.
Many thanks.
Lannanta
|
|
|
Post by gandolf on Nov 23, 2008 5:31:02 GMT -5
mmmmm, it helps if you fill in the search criteria correctly Lannanta, hope this helps: Free Inhabitants in the County of Grant, Wisconson. (Although enumerated on 6th Sep, officially as at 30th June 1850) House No. 798, Family No. 810 Name Age Occupation WhereBornRichard Quick 40 Miner England Grace Quick 30 - England John B. Quick 7 - England Grace O. Quick 3 - England John Richards 40 Miner England George Parkes (not sure of surname) 25 Miner England
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 23, 2008 10:11:30 GMT -5
Well done Gandolf. Richard married Jane GENT at St Ives 4th February 1836. I cannot find her burial so she most be one of either two who died in 1838 or the one in 1839 as shown iin FreeBMD - no others prior to the 1841 Census. Jane was baptised at St Ives 11th August 1807 d/o George GENT and Grace (nee BENNETTS). George, mariner of Stoke Damerel, married Grace at St Ives 11th September 1803 and the were three other daughters baptised at St Ives - Grace in 1804, Susan in 1815 and Margaret in 1816. Grace married Henry Polmeor TREVORROW at St Ives 30th April 1832. Henry Downing QUICK was born in Wisconsin, USA according to the 1861 Census and IGI records his baptism at Bodmin 12th July 1857. Also baptised at Bodmin on that same date were siblings Georgina Osborn, Mary and Richard. According to the 1861 Census Georgina was born at St Ives, Mary at St Mawes(?) and Richard at Bodmin. According to the 1881 Census Mary was born at St Ives but the 1861 entry is certainly not St Ives. Grace Bennatts DOWNING was born 11th October 1818 and baptised 25th October 1818 St Ives Wesleyan according to IGI. Parents - Henry DOWNING m. Ann Bennatts PICKERSGILL 21st July 1817 at St Ives. Grace left a Will which was proved in 1892 - it can be found via the CRO Catalogue online. The Will was dated 8th July 1890 and proved 21st July 1892. States that Grace died 3rd July 1892. Admon. granted to John BENNETT and John Eccles BROWN, sons-in-law. Mentioned daughter Mary QUICK, Grace Osborn wife of John BENNETT, master mariner and Georgiana Osborn Dunn wife of John Eccles BROWN, commercial traveller. After details of that arrangement was finalised she then mentioned all her children - John Bennett QUICK, Henry Downing QUICK, Richard QUICK, Grace Osborn BENNETT, Georgina Osborn Dunn BROWN and Mary QUICK. And now that Gandolf has given me some more sites to play with I guess work on his George ROSEWALL problem might be delayed for a short time. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 23, 2008 12:17:55 GMT -5
John Eccles BROWN Georgina Osborn D QUICK
Married Birmingham R.D. 1883 September Qtr Vol 6d Page 253
So far been unable to locate Grace in 1881, 1891 or 1901 Census.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2008 13:58:55 GMT -5
Morning Gandolf and CT I had a record of this marriage also but I also had another marriage at St Ives, Richard Quick to Hannah Shugg, dated 24th November 1834 and I had no way to distinguish them. I assume that he didn't marry both of them Lannanta
|
|
|
Post by gandolf on Nov 23, 2008 14:20:22 GMT -5
From Barnon Cemetery headstones:
Richard Quick 10/7/1878 70 also wife Grace Downing 3/7/1892 78 also Mary daughter 13/12/1937 83 erected by daughter Georgina O. D. Brown (note: Mary's details must have been added after Georgina's death)
Harry son of J. E. & G. O. D. Brown 9/4/1909 28 Georgina O. D. widow of John Eccles Brown 22/4/1920 68 also John Eccles 3/2/1919 75
|
|
|
Post by gandolf on Nov 23, 2008 14:43:27 GMT -5
OK, now I am officially confused! John Eccles BROWN Georgina Osborn D QUICK Married Birmingham R.D. 1883 September Qtr Vol 6d Page 253 This is undoubtedly the marriage of Georgina to the husband she is named with in her mother's will and also the man she is buried with. However, as per the burial records posted above, Georgina & John had a son born around 1880. This would certainly appear to be him, given the naming pattern: Births Sep 1880 (>99%) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BROWN Henry Downing Penzance 5c 263 There is also the following marriage, which I had thought was the relevant one: Marriages Sep 1879 (>99%) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brown John Penzance 5c 314 Copplestone Elizabeth Penzance 5c 314 HODGE Joseph Edward Penzance 5c 314 QUICK Georgina Penzance 5c 314 Also consistant with 1881 census (although John seems to be referred to as George??): Household: Dwelling 22 Douglas Ter Westville Rd Census Place London, Middlesex, England Family History Library Film 1341013 Public Records Office Reference RG11 Piece / Folio 0061 / 76 Page Number 57 Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability George BROWN Head M Male 36 Scotland Comcl Traveller (Mill Furnishing) Georgina BROWN Wife M Female 27 St Ives, Cornwall, England Henry D. BROWN Son Male 8 m St Ives, Cornwall, England Emily GOSTLING Servant U Female 20 London Knightsbridge, London, Middlesex, England Domestic Servant mmmm, looking at it again, the Georgina on the census seems to be a little young, but .... There are also a couple of marriages in London that involve a George Brown marrying a Georgina that might be the above census record. So perhaps that can be discounted as not relevant? Also, there does not seem to be a Georgina Quick on the 1881 census anywhere in England, suggesting that she was not unmarried at the time.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 23, 2008 17:24:23 GMT -5
Georgina's age in the 1881 Census is pretty close to right. It infers a birth about 1853 and she was actually born in 1852 - so no problem. Here is the Marriage from FreeBMD:- Marriages Sep 1883 (>99%) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ARMSTRONG Andrew Birmingham 6d 253 BROWN John Eccles Birmingham 6d 253 McMillan Grace Birmingham 6d 253 Quick Georgina Osborne D Birmingham 6d 253 QUICK Georgina Osbourne D Birmingham 6d 253 And here are the details of Henry D BROWN from the St Ives OPRs for the year 1880:- 29 Aug Henry Downing c/o John Ecclese (Commercial traveller) & Georgina Dunn Brown of Everton, Liverpool b. 4 Jul This has got me a little confused now. That is the ONLY marriage for a John Eccles BROWN and, as you can see, the year is definitely 1883. Equally - the birth/baptism data for young Henry Downing BROWN is from the St Ives OPR and is clearly 1880 which matches with the MI information Gandolf supplied. And, of course, there is the 1879 marriage as supplied by Gandolf. There is the possibility of double-registration for the marriage - albeit four years apart. Lannanta - Richard QUICK m. Hannah SHUGG I think I mentioned this one some time back. (In fact I am sure I did.) Richard was bp. 11th May 1806 at St Ives s/o James and Eleanor (nee HODGE) QUICK Richard was an Officer of Customs as was his brother James and both were in London. Hannah died in 1858 at St George in the East and Richard then married Ruth DODDS in 1859. It appears that Richard had no children although Ruth brought with her an illegitimate daughter, Eliza Ann. I don't yet know when Richard died but brother James died probably at St Ives 13th August 1887 (death regd. Penzance) and was buried at Barnoon Cemetery. BTW - I checked FreeBMD for marriages between 1871 and 1880 and there is not one possibility that looks remotely like Georgina QUICK.
|
|
|
Post by gandolf on Nov 24, 2008 5:36:51 GMT -5
John Eccles Brown & Georgina Osborn Dunn Quick - another Quick conundrum sent to challenge us I have just double checked and there are only 13 Georgina Browns on the 1881 census with birthdates in the range 1851-1855. There is only one born in Cornwall - the Georgina previously noted with George Brown as her husband. The only Henry Brown born 1880 in Cornwall on the 1881 census is Henry D. Brown, in the same household with George & Georgina Brown. Henry Downing Brown was baptised in August, but born 4th July 1880. This would make him 9 months old at the time of the 1881 census, consistent with his recorded age of 8 months. His mother's name of Georgina Dunn Brown is a reasonable variation of Georgina Osborne Dunn (nee Quick) Brown. Given that George Brown (as shown on the census record) is a commercial traveller with a wife Georgina & son Henry D. Brown, (wife & son both born St. Ives), it seems that George Brown must in reality have been John Eccles Brown. Given the similarity of the mother's name at the baptism of Henry, the Georgina Brown in the 1881 census must be Georgina Osborne Dunn (nee Quick) Brown. The only other possibility is that John Eccles Brown married another Georgina (say Georgina Dunn or Georgina Dunn ??) and that she then died. However there is a lack deaths of a Georgina Brown anywhere in England between 1880-1883 that is anywhere near the right age - the only ones of childberaring age being a 17yo at Plympton, Devon/Cornwall and an 18yo at weatherby, Yorks - both in 1881. So at this point I am with CT, it seems that the only possible explanation is that for reasons unknown John Eccles Brown and Georgina Osborne Dunn Quick had two marriage registrations four years apart and in two different counties.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 24, 2008 6:24:48 GMT -5
Double registration certainly seems to be the answer here but the question is - WHY? My initial thoughts when I mentioned the possibility were that it was something to do with emigration. But having since found the family in 1891 and 1901 Census records in Cornwall ............ However there may have been an intent to migrate with the decision to remain home being ultimately made. I am also curious about the two registrations for another reason. The 1879 entry is very much different to that of 1883 in that it merely states John BROWN and Georgina QUICK. The 1883 entry is certainly much more 'polished' - so is there even more to this than might meet the eye. Perhaps only the Marriage Certificates might give us the answer. CT
|
|
|
Post by gandolf on Nov 24, 2008 7:02:36 GMT -5
CT, I assume (since you didn't mention otherwise) that the 1891 & 1901 census records on the family in Cornwall are consistent with the 1881 census, as well as the other data we have been looking at? Just checked 1891 - yes the information does match. Have just been talking to another genie friend earlier this evening, and inevitably the subject of difficult family members came up. I ran our "double marriage" scenerio past her and she made an interesting observation that "might" explain it. Firstly, remember we are talking here about a Cornish lass and a Scottish lad. Georgina would undoubtedly have been Church of England in her religion. John Eccles Brown, having been born in Scotland, was most likely Church of Scotland. Although born in Scotland, it is possible that John's family was in Birmingham. We know from the records that John was a commercial traveller - this likely explains John's presence in Cornwall originally, and the family's later moves to London and Birmingham. The baptism of son Henry also indicates the family lived in Liverpool for a period. A plausible explanation is that John married Georgina as we know in 1879 in Cornwall. The marriage would almost certainly have been in the Church of England (or perhaps in a registry office??). Cornish records for other people indicate that the Cornish were often a little more casual about recording full names - there are many occurances where we know about second/third middle names that do not always appear in the records. So therefore John & Georgina are recorded without their names being in all their full glory. By 1883, the family is up in Birmingham. Possibly they then come into contact with John Brown's family. Being Church of Scotland, it is possible that they do not recognize the earlier marriage as valid and/or create an uproar about it. So to appease the family, John and Georgina marry again, this time in the Church of Scotland. The only problem with this scenario is that I don't know for certain whether there was any Church of Scotland churches in Birmingham, although I strongly suspect that there would have been given its proximity to Scotland.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 24, 2008 7:20:48 GMT -5
Gandolf - more welcome ideas and certainly possible. Celt vs Celt! ;D 1891 Census Tregenna Place, St Ives John BROWN, head, mar, 46, commercial traverller (mill furnishing), Scotland Georgiana do., wife, mar, 38, St Ives Henry D do., son, 10, scholar, St Ives 1901 Census Porthminster Hill, St Ives John Eccles BROWN, head, mar, 56, india rubber manufacturer, Scotland Georgina O D do., wife, mar, 49, St Ives Henry D do., son, unm, 20, artist ( ), St Ives That's all. Time to have another think about George ROSEWALL - got any Panadol?
|
|