Noall Humphreys?

[londoner]

Can anyone tell me if Catherine (aka Caroline c1850 St Ives) wife of John Humphreys (c1841) of Mousehole was a Noall or Penberthy or possible even Payne - I cant find their marriage but one of their children was John Payne W Humphreys (1876) Richard Noall Humphreys(1881) and another Jane Penberthy N Humphreys (1883)
Their first child was William Arnold b 1867.
Daughter Ella Rose married Michael Welch Noall in 1897

[Cornish Terrier]

Londoner - I cannot find the marriage either and there is another NOALL marriage I cannot find yet but will deal with that later.

But I have found something that might prove interesting and, possibly, part of the answer.

In the 1851 Census at Warren, St Ives we have a Richard and Caroline Noall with daughter Caroline age 1.

Here are the details of that family as I know them:-

Richard NOALL born c 1826 s/o Richard NOALL shoemaker
married 1. 25th June 1849 St Ives
Caroline Matilda JENKYN

Daughter Caroline bn. St Ives about 1849/50

Caroline Matilda NOALL died December Qtr 1853

Richard NOALL, widr. (as above)
married 7th June 1861 St Ives
Jane PENBERTHY

So there you have the NOALL and PENBERTHY names and a Caroline born at the right time.

The names of the HUMPHREYS children, or at least some of them, now seem logical:-

Richard Noall Humphreys named after Caroline's father
Jane Penberthy N Humphreys named after Caroline's step-mother

At the moment that would seem to leave the PAYNE connection on the HUMPRHEYS side - although that is not conclusive.

I have searched FreeBMD using a multiple of choices for the names and come up with nothing.

Tried surnames NOALL, PAYNE and PENBERTHY with both CAROLINE and CATHERINE as first name but no marriage found.

Also tried several variations of the name HUMPRHEYS to no avail.

But I think I may be on the right track with the above so will pursue it a little further and see what more I might find.

CT

[londoner]

John & Caroline's youngest daughter (as at 1891 census) was Caroline Matilda b 1889 so you must have found them - must have a further look for the marriage.

BUT Caroline Matilda Noall m 1873 to either John Major or Richard Carbines. So was Catherine a different person, did both John & Caroline have earlier marriages? this is getting complicated

[Cornish Terrier]

Oh Dear! - just found a spanner for the works.

FreeBMD shows a marriage in 1873 for a Caroline Matilda NOALL to either John MAJOR or Richard CARBINES.

Guess what - cannot find them in the Census.

There was another Caroline born about 1850/1 d/o Andrew NOALL but that would not explain the HUMPHREYS names.

Another little dilemma - Caroline d/o Richard and Caroline NOALL was still unmarried and living at home with her father and step-mother at the time of the 1871 Census.

The question must now be whether Richard had a daughter Catherine also.

In 1861 Richard, now widowed, is living with his parents Richard and Grace along with his now 10 year old daughter Caroline.
No sign of a Catherine there.

Also just checked FreeBMD and Caroline Matilda NOALL was born December Qtr 1849.

And I have done a search of Marriages in FreeBMD for 1866 and 1867 using the search terms of 'Catherine' and 'Penzance' but there is absolutely nothing there remotely like what we want.

Will keep trying.

CT

[londoner]

Panic not! I just realised there was a huge gap between William Arnold and Ella Rose - indicating second marriage -
- then found John in 1871 married to Susannah Beadon Wright ( m 1865) Susannah died in 1878.
John m Caroline Major in 1880 - nice to solve my own problem! with a little help from you of course ;D

[Cornish Terrier]

I think what I have found so far proves that the wife of John Humphreys was not Caroline Matilda Noall given she was still unmarried in 1871 and there is a marriage for her in 1873 to John MAJOR or Richard CARBINES.

But it is also apparent that John's wife was connected to the marriage of Richard NOALL and Caroline Matilda JENKYN and his second marriage to Jane PENBERTHY.

That leads me to think there must be a daughter Catherine in there somewhere.

But if the first child was born in 1867 then we are looking at a young bride.

Another Question - have you found birth/baptism records for any of the children?

I have just had a look at FreeBMD using only the search term 'William Arnold', 'Arnold' and 'William A' for the years 1865-1869 inclusive and can find no sign of the first child.

The 1881 Census records that all children present had been born at Mousehole yet I can find no baptisms for them at Paul, Newlyn St Peter or Newlyn Wesleyan.

And there is something else that I am wondering - could John HUMPHRYE's wife have been an illegitimate daughter of Richard NOALL?

No search has so far found any evidence of this and I cannot find her in the Census.

BUT TRY THIS ONE ON FOR SIZE:-

Marriages Mar 1880 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HARRIS Elizabeth Penzance 5c 368
Humphries John Penzance 5c 368
Major Caroline Penzance 5c 368
STEVENS James Penzance 5c 368


That LOOKS extremely interesting to me! ;D

Especially as the names Richard Noall and Jane Penberthy do not appear until 1881!

That would mean that the marriage of Caroline Matilda NOALL to John MAJOR would be correct and that Caroline was widowed.

Also means that John HUMPHRIES was probably first married to someone named Catherine and that he, too, was widowed before 1880.

Now to see if an earlier marriage can be found for John HUMPHREYS (var.)

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

I'm getting on a roll here. ;D

1871 Census - Mousehole, Paul

Mount Pleasant

John HUMPHRYS, head, mar, 30, fisherman, Paul
Susannah B do., wife, mar, 29, fisherman's wife, Paul
William A do., son, 4, Mousehole
Joseph do., son, 1, Mousehole

Right age and right birthplace for John.

From FreeBMD

Marriages Jun 1865 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Humphrys John Penzance 5c 544
Lanyon Mary Ann Penzance 5c 544
Richards William Penzance 5c 544
Wright Susanna Beaden Penzance 5C 544

Burials at Paul

1873
5 Feb Joseph Humphrys of Mousehole aged 4

1878
28 Aug Susannah Humphreys of Mousehole aged 36

Again - the names and ages are about right!

Methinks they are found! ;D

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Well burn me and butter me on both sides! - you beat me to it. ;D

[Cornish Terrier]

Looking now to see if I can find that PAYNE connection and starting with the WRIGHT family.

There was a Susannah Beaden WRIGHT d/o John and Margaret baptised at Paul 23rd February 1800 and I might suggest that it was her brother who was the father of the girl who married John HUMPHRYS.

Susanna appears in the 1851 Census with parents Joseph and Mary A WRIGHT.

Joseph WRIGHT bp. 21st December 1806 s/o John and Margaret so was certainly a brother to the above.

IGI does not show a marriage for John and Margaret WRIGHT in Cornwall but there are over 200 matches elsewhere. (Covering a couple of centuries of course!

Joseph WRIGHT married Mary Ann JAMES 31st August 1832 at Paul

That doesn't help with PAYNE.

Does that name turn up on John's side at all?

[londoner]

John Wright m Margaret Beaden 23 Dec 1796 Paul (Cornwall opc site)
Good lead, well tracked down you! ;D
I haven't come across any Payne connection yet, currently wandering up and down the Wallis line

Ah ha! Susanna's brother was John Payne Wright (b 1847) must check Mary Ann James parents next.

[londoner]

According to IGI Mary Ann was daughter of James and Patience.
James James m Patience Payn 16 Oct 1803 at Paul. so there we have it

[Cornish Terrier]

Well Done - a Terrier after me own 'art!