Three Baragwanaths

[Zenobia]

Having hashed over the parish Register a bit in the former thread in this board, I will now present a specific dilemna:

Towednack Burials:

1. Anne Baragwanath 28 Dec. 1686

2. Elizabeth Baragwanath 4 Mar. 1714/5

3. Elizabeth Baragwanath 15 Dec. 1722

Who are these three women?

In 1686 the register shows burials of five women; the other 4 are all identified as 'daughter', 'wife' or 'widow'. Anne is the only one not identified as such.

In 1714, there are three female burials for the year, and the other two are identified as a wife, and a widow. The one identified as widow died less than a week before Elizabeth.

In 1722 Elizabeth is the only female listed for the year. The register at this point seems to be getting a bit sloppier with a few persons just after being known to be wives or widows, but not identified as such.

It would seem to me that 1. and 2 must be spinsters, but not neccessarily 3.

I had tentatively identified 2. as the spinster daughter of John and Eleanor Baragwanath, but, as she was b. in 1723 that would make her 92 - a bit long in the tooth. Her sister Emblem, the other spinster, died back in 1684.

In addition, 3. is listed in the Ludgvan Leas Manorial records as being a resident of Zennor, holding a tenement in Tendrine and the next life on the estate is Elizabeth Quicke. Daughter? Cousin? No relation? Married? Single? Can anyone identify Elizabeth Quick?

Both John and Richard Baragwanath (brothers) must have had wives who died at some point. Richard is buried in 1711, and John, who was living in 1680, probably died 1681-1682 when the P.R. is missing entries. (Unless he lived to be quite old and died during the missing entries of 1707 or later - he was b. in 1618.) So it seems very unlikely that Anne (1686) would be the wife of Richard and almost as unlikely to be the widow of John.

Elizabeth (1722) could possibly be the widow of Richard - she must be possibly as old as 87 at that point.

The latter two Elizabeths are too late to be wives of John, unless he married more than once.

Any suggestions anyone?

[Cornish Terrier]

I have Anne 'pencilled in' as a daughter of Richard and Jane Baragwanath but that was last updated in 1999 so have done nothing on that one since then.
Elizabeth (bur. 1714) is another one not updated since 1999 and I show her as d/o John and Eleanor.
You must remember that we have seen many instances of longevity around that time and in that area.
The last one, Elizabeth bur. 1722, again dates back to 1999 in my records and I still show her as d/o Richard and Jane.

Afraid I can't be much help on this one right at the moment but will ponder it as I get opportunity.

[Zenobia]

Ah!

But all three of those pencilings came from...... ME!

Unfortunately, me is now on the verge of admitting that just maybe I could have been .....

wrong

Giving Richard a wife named Jane comes from an undated Ludgvan Leas document that shows a Jane Baragwanath showing up as holding a piece of land. Originally I believed that this document was dated much earlier than it was and assigned Jane as the wife of Richard. However, after examining more closely, it is just as likely (perhaps even moreso) that it is of a much later date, and the Jane in question may be the widow of William Baragwanth, ie: the next generation entirely.

So now I am requestioning the three Baragwanath women.

I really do believe that the PR evidence suggest that Ann and the first Elizabeth were spinsters.

But the latter Elizabeth could have easily been a widow. If so, then she almost certainly must be the widow of Richard. It seems like we should be able to discern more about her because of the tent. in Tendrine and its passing on to Elizabeth Quick.

For that reason I think the identity of Elizabeth Quick can become very important.... I know a lot has been done with those early Quicks and it seems like we ought to be able to identify the latter and from there possibly identify Elizabeth Baragwanath with more certainty....

[Cornish Terrier]

Could be right but I will have to look into it WHEN I get a chance.
Lots to do now with work and new contacts also (have been trying to point a few in this direction.)
Also have Fire Extinguisher Maintenance season starting in a couple of weeks so will be busy.

But will look back on this, review, and let you know what I come up with.

[Zenobia]

ianjtrewhella said:

Could be right but I will have to look into it WHEN I get a chance.
Lots to do now with work and new contacts also (have been trying to point a few in this direction.)
Also have Fire Extinguisher Maintenance season starting in a couple of weeks so will be busy.

But will look back on this, review, and let you know what I come up with.

Oooh! Better start pullin' overtime then, 'cus I'm gonna throw lots more of these little Penwith Probs in the forum for you to solve!

[Cornish Terrier]

Geeee! THANKS!

[Cornish Terrier]

I am not sure how much I can help here but I have been taking a bit of a look at things.

One thing appears certain - the Elizabeth Baragwanath of Zennor who is mentioned as recently deceased in 1723 would appear to be the same person buried at Towednack in 1722 and it may be that she was, indeed, the wife of Richard Baragwanath.

As for Elizabeth Quick 'the next life' - one likely possibility is the daughter of Paul and Jane Quick who was baptised at Towednack in 1704 but I cannot see a relationship anywhere.

However, it appears Elizabeth Baragwanath was a 'life' on Tendrine and that Elizabeth Quick was the next 'life' so it seems to me that the best method of approach would be to try and track down the document that names them as 'lives'.

This should tell us who took out the lease and who else was involved either as a lessee or as, possibly, the third 'life'.

Best I can do for now but will try and look at it again later tonight.

[Zenobia]

I have been studying this a bit more.

I think it is reasonable to conclude that Elizabeth Baragwanath, who died in 1722, was the widow of Richard.

Among the children who have been tentatively placed as children of Richard, and whose offspring are known, all had Elizabeths:

William Baragwanath, who is definitely a son of Richard, named his first daughter Catherine, presumedly after his wife's mother. The second was named Jane, for the wife. The third was named ELIZABETH.

Jane Baragwanath, wife of William Trewhella, named her eldest daughter ELIZABETH.

Catherine Baragwanath, w/o William Stevens, had only one child before here early death, and that child was named ELIZABETH.

Emblem Baragwanath, whom we suspect was the wife of Matthew Curnow, named her eldest daughter ELIZABETH, and when that daughter died, gave the very next one the same name.

As for the lease of Tendrine, this was part of Ludgvan Leas, and I doubt if the original leases exist, or they would probably have had copies filed with the manorial records, which are extant.

Because Elizabeth Baragwanath was quite elderly, however, I always suspected Elizabeth Quick, the next life, to be a married woman, not a young child. Are there any Quicks ca. 1722 with wives named Elizabeth?

[Cornish Terrier]

Can't find any Quicks with a wife named Elizabeth at this stage for the relevent period (There were some earlier but had died prior to 1722 and the others married into the Quick family later on) but at least have the following who could be involved:

Elizabeth Quick bp. 25 Mar 1704 Towednack d/o Paul and Jane.
Elizabeth Quick bp. 15 Mar 1701 Towednack d/o Henry and Jane.
Elizabeth Quick bn. aft. 1701 d/o James and Mary (was 'of Zennor' when she married Henry Scaddan at Gwinear in 1732)
Elizabeth Quick (possibly) bn. c. 1705 Zennor d/o William and Jane (Carter) and married George Thomas at Breage in 1730.

There are a couple more at St Ives but .... ?

Don't know if that is much help.

[Zenobia]

My first thought was that Richard and Elizabeth Baragwanath may have had a daughter that married a Quick, or even a granddaughter who was a Quick.

On the first three that you have listed above, do you have a maiden name for the mother?

[Cornish Terrier]

Very 'QUICKly'

The wife of Paul Quick was Jane QUICK d/o James Quick and Jane (Knight)

The wife of Henry Quick was Jane QUICK d/o William Quick and Elizabeth (Stevens)

The third one I have not yet found.

;D

[Zenobia]

ianjtrewhella said:

Very 'QUICKly'

The wife of Paul Quick was Jane QUICK d/o James Quick and Jane (Knight)

The wife of Henry Quick was Jane QUICK d/o William Quick and Elizabeth (Stevens)

The third one I have not yet found.

;D

Ah hah!

We might be on to something here....

When were William Quick and Elizabeth Stevens married?

Do you know her parentage?

[Zenobia]

Something new to throw into the mix.

I rechecked the entry in the Ludgvan P.R. for the July 1663 baptism of the base daughter of Elizabeth Baragwanath. I could not make out the name previously (the beginning is cut off), but this time I could tell that the ending was definitely 'eth' so her name was also Elizabeth. There is no record of her dying young there, so we must now presume that a third Elizabeth was in existance.

She would be the granddaughter of John Baragwanath (Elizabeth Sr. would have been 40 when she had her), and now I am thinking it is certainly possible that the 1714/5 burial may have been her, rather than her mother.

[Cornish Terrier]

I just realised I had not given you an answer to your penultimate message.

William QUICK s/o James and Jane (nee KNIGHT)
m. April 13 1681 at Zennor
Elizabeth STEVENS d/o Edward

That is the best I have as of August 14, 2000.

Your latest posting is interesting and, on the face of it, I must agree.
But I will need to look at all of this a little more closely as soon as I get the chance.

Starting to get the 'old clan' (Quick, Stevens, Curnow, Baragwanath, Trewhella, Eddy etc.) going round in my head but want to try and get the Trewolla thing a little more organised and then sort the US Trewhella Census problems so that I can concentrate on this other stuff a little more.

Should something cross my mind that might be of use I will certainly post it and will keep checking all notes.

[Cornish Terrier]

Something new to throw into the mix.

I rechecked the entry in the Ludgvan P.R. for the July 1663 baptism of the base daughter of Elizabeth Baragwanath. I could not make out the name previously (the beginning is cut off), but this time I could tell that the ending was definitely 'eth' so her name was also Elizabeth. There is no record of her dying young there, so we must now presume that a third Elizabeth was in existance.

She would be the granddaughter of John Baragwanath (Elizabeth Sr. would have been 40 when she had her), and now I am thinking it is certainly possible that the 1714/5 burial may have been her, rather than her mother.

Resurrecting another old thread here as part of my quest to try and solve the problem of the mystery marriage at Towednack 14th August 1679 between 'Matthew' (no surname recorded) and Emlyn Baragwanath.

Any effort to solve this problem requires a reconstruction of the Baragwanath family around Towednack during the 17th Century. This is my umpteenth attempt at doing this and it has not got any easier but ...........

In Zenobia's quote from above I now have evidence to dispute her 'ending was definitely 'eth' ' comment. Having just taken a close look at the Ludgvan BTs I can now categorically say that the child's name was REBECKA!!!

I would furthermore suggest that this may solve another problem - 21st November 1691 Ludgvan John Chelew was married to ROBENA Baragwanath. I would suggest now that 'Robena' is actually REBECCA! (In the Ludgvan Parish Register for this time the Vicar seems to have been very careful to clearly write is 'O' as an unmistakable 'O' whether be capital or lower case whereas his 'e' was always a 'reverse e' which to the layman would be taken as an 'o'.

And that makes perfect sense ................ because now I can find a burial! REBECCA Chylew was buried at Ludgvan 13th May 1717! (I had never been able to find any further trace of ROBENA!!

CT