Joseph Polglase and William Dunstan

[ann]

My husband's grt g mother was Elizabeth Polglase and I am trying to find the relationship between her and Joseph Polglase of Treneere. I also can't find a marriage between Joseph and his wife who I think was Sarah ( as per the 1881 etc censuses). There seem to be so many Polglases, but few who came from Lelant. According to the grave inscriptions in Lelant churchyard, they're all in the wrong graves! That can't be right - I think I must have the wrong Polglase line. Can anybody help and put me on the right lines? I think William Dunstan was a relation on Sarah's side but I have no real evidence except that his name hasn't cropped up at all in my searchings of the Polglases.
I have got quite a lot of recent information about Joseph P but would like more background on him and his immediate family. if anyone can help I'd be grateful
ann

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Ann - something tells me I have been down this path before, with Isambard I think.

It is strange that the only marriage recorded in FreeBMD for a Joseph Polglase/Polglaze to Sarah was:-

1866 Lambeth June Qtr Vol 1d Page 408
Joseph POLGLASE and Sarah BILLINGE

I cannot be certain that Sarah was actually the wife but her name is on the same page as Joseph.

In any case this marriage would be too late unless it were a second marriage for Joseph given his eldest child in 1881 was then 23 and thus born about 1857/8.

The fact that there is a gap of 13 years between Edith (18) and Rosa (5) in 1881 is suggestive of two things:-

1. Joseph was certainly married twice and Rosa was a result of the second marriage or
2. Rosa was actually an illegitimate grandaughter.

Another very interesting observation from FreeBMD.

Joseph should have married sometime before 1858 given his eldest daughter was born about 1857/8 yet there are only two marriages recorded - one for Joseph POLGLAZE at Edmonton in 1853 and one for Joseph POLGLASE at Truro in 1844.

According to the 1881 Census Joseph was born about 1837.

He was baptised at Lelant 24th December 1837 s/o Joseph (innkeeper) and Jane POLGLAZE and was the second child of that name the first having apparently died young.

The earlier Joseph was baptised at Lelant in 1834 and these are the only two entries for that Parish for any Polglase/Polglaze up until 1840.

William DUNSTAN is clearly named as 'nephew' in 1881 but there is no indication as to whether he was the nephew of Joseph or of Sarah.

BUT - I may have just found something that suggests William was indeed the nephew of Joseph Polglase.

1852 December Qtr Vol 5c Page 556 Penzance R.D.
Edward Samuel DUNSTAN m. Eliza Jane POLGLASE

1871 Census Lelant
Lelant Downs

Edward S Dunstan, head, mar., 41, mariner, Lelant
Eliza J do., wife, mar., 41, Lelant
Richard R do., son, unm, 17, miner, Lelant
Samuel do., son, unm, 16, miner, Lelant
Elizabeth do., daur, 12, scholar, Lelant
Elizabeth J do., daur, 10, scholar, Lelant
William do., son, 8, scholar, Lelant
John do., son, 5, scholar, Lelant
Joseph do., son, 3, scholar, Lelant
Thomas do., son, 3 months, Lelant

Now I need to find a baptism for Elizabeth to see if she was the daughter also of Joseph and Jane.

14th November 1830 Eliza Jane d/o Joseph (ostler) and Jane POLGLASE baptised at Phillack

(An ostler was a stableman at an Inn.)

I cannot find this family anywhere in 1851 at the moment.

1841 Census - Lelant
Quay Lane

Jane Polglase, 40, Innkeeper
William do., 13
Eliza do., 10
Joseph do., 3
Sarah Richards, 22, female servant

Have found Eliza Jane in 1851 enumerated as a servant at Truro.

Have also now found Jane at Lelant with son William and another son whose name has been interpreted as 'Julen'.
The writing on this page is extremely faint and I cannot clearly make out the name.

Jane now gives her age as 49 and her birthplace as Breage and is recorded as 'formerly innkeeper's wife'.
William is recorded as age 25, born at Breage, and the other son as 9, born at Lelant.

A possible marriage for Joseph and Jane - remembering that Jane could also be 'Jennifer':-

Joseph Polglase of Breage married Jenifer ROWE of Breage 27th December 1822 at Breage

The following children were baptised at Breage:-


8th June 1823 Eliza d/o Joseph and Jenifer (husbandman of Trevithick

22nd January 1826 William s/o Joseph and Jane (farmer of Trevithick)

And another child at Phillack:-

22nd July 1832 Angelina d/o Joseph and Jane (laborer of Ventonlege)

So - I believe I have solved the problem of William DUNSTAN and his relationship to Joseph and Sarah POLGLASE - he was the son of Joseph's sister Eliza Jane.

AND HERE IS SOMETHING INTERESTING!

The 1861 Census very possibly gives us the maiden name of Joseph's wife Sarah.

1861 - Breage

Herland Cross

Joseph POLGLASE, head, mar, 23, miner, Lelant
Sarah do., wife, mar, 26, tin miner's wife, Ludgvan
Martha A do., daur, 4, Breage
Sarah J do., daur, 2, Breage
Martha CARNE, sister-in-law, unm., 36, farmer's daughter, Ludgvan

Martha CARNE bp. 5th May 1822 Ludgvan d/o Thomas and Martha (farmer)
Sarah CARNE bp. 30th October 1831 Ludgvan d/o Thomas and Martha (farmer)

Thomas CARNE married Martha RICHARDS 17th March 1821 at Breage

AND NOW I think I can give you the marriage of Joseph and Sarah!

1854 December Qtr Vol 5c Page 391 Helston R.D.
Joseph PENGLASE married Sarah Richards CARNE

;D ;D ;D

This is the second time in recent months I have seen a POLGLASE recorded as PENGLASE.

This means that Joseph would have been about 17 when he married and Sarah about 23 - this age difference is more or less reflected in the 1861 Census although Sarah is recorded as being younger than she actually was.

That is about the best I can do for now.

I have to head into town to pick up a couple of things but will be back online later on.

Now for a question - exactly how does your Elizabeth POLGLASE fit into the picture other than being your husband's gt-grandmother?

Can you give me some more information about her such as age/birthdate, marriage details - or anything at all that might allow me to help you further?

CT

[cornishmaid]

Hi Ann, and welcome to the site

Could you give some more information about Elizabeth, especially with regards to dates and as to what confirmed details you have. Also why you think there is a connection to Joseph P.

Also, which grave inscriptions are wrong? What names and dates are on them, and why do you think they are in error?

Give us what you already have, what is confirmed, and where the gaps are, and we'll try and work from there

In the meantime, have been having a look at the census returns, and it looks like the Joseph Polglaze you mention married a Sarah Carne around about 1855 ish.

The 1861 census of Herland Cross, Godolphin, Breage, gives the following details:
Joseph Polglaze, Head of the family, aged 23 and a Tin Miner, born in Lelant.
Sarah his wife is 26, and born Ludgvan.
There are 2 daughters, Martha A Polglaze aged 4, and Sarah J Polglaze aged 2, both born in Breage.
With the family is Martha Carne, sister in law, unmarried, aged 36, Farmer's daughter, born in Ludgvan.

In 1851 I found a Carne family living in Tregoning, Godolphin, Breage, with:
Martha Carne, head, married, aged 61, born in Breage, Farmers Wife 20 Acres
Thomas Carne, son, unmarried, aged 27, Farmers Son
Sarah Carne, daughter, Unmarried, aged 18, Farmer's Daughter
John Carne, Son, aged 16, Farmer's son.
(All the children were born in Ludgvan.)
This looks like Sarah's family.

I have tracked Joseph back to 1841 at Quay Lane, Uny Lelant, with Jane Polglase, aged 40, Innkeeper; William aged 15; Eliza aged 10 and Joseph aged 3. It looks like the children were orphaned at an early age. The following excerpt is from the West Briton dated 25 June 1839:
At Lelant, on the 15th instant, Mr Joseph Polglase, of the Praed's Arms Inn, aged 45 years.
I haven't found the marriage of Joseph Polglase to Jane as yet.

[cornishmaid]

Ah well, back to my Noalls

[Cornish Terrier]

Cornishmaid - looks like you and I 'crossed paths' again and came up with extremely similar information.

Except I reckon I have found the marriage (as posted). ;D

Will await further input regarding Elizabeth Polglase from Ann before proceeding further on this one I think.

[ann]

Thank you for your replies I am still inwardly digesting it all but there are somethings that still don't fit. I'll let you have all the information I have in the next couple of days. Ann

[ann]

Joseph Polglase and William Dunstan of Treneere
My reason for endeavouring to establish the relationship beween Elizabeth ?Jane Polglase, and Joseph Polglase of Treneere was that my grandmother and her children always talked about their aunts at Treneere and the possibility that they might come into some money one day! Handed through the family and now in my possession is a ring of gold quartz which was supposedly from the first nugget that a gold miner in the family struck. Where we do not know but possibly South Africa. The story goes on that when Joseph died in 1921 he left the estate of Treneere to the four surviving daughters (the aunts). We believe three remained spinsters, whilst one daughter was Mrs Warren married to S Warren. In 1956, when the last remaining daughter, Edith died, the estate was left to the gardener, Reginald Symons who looked after the house and the contents! We never knew how much of this story was fact or how much was wishful thinking.
A headline in the Western Daily Press caught our eye that Reginald Symons had died and left the entire estate to St Dunstans. It appeared that the house and contents were to be sold by Bonhams in March 2007. The catalogue has an interesting synopsis of Treneer Manor, and describes Joseph Polglase as a seafarer and bought the estate in 1876 and he is decribed as a seafarer
This raises several questions - 1. Was Joseph a seafarer? 2. Where did the money come from to buy such an imposing house and estate? 3. Has the ring any connection with Joseph?
I would like to trace his will and find out more about the estate. I know it was once owned by the Olivers of Bath Oliver fame. When I visited the house is now surrounded by the most run down housing estate that has enormous problems. Over the years the land has been sold off to the local council, probably for death duties.
My great gmother,Elizabeth J Polglase d 11.6.1937 aged 76 is buried in Lelant Churchyard with her husband John Griffiths d 4.12.911 aged 52 in a car accident as reported in The Cornishman 9/12/1911. He kept the White Hart in Hayle but we don't know if Elizabeth kept on at the White Hart. We haven't yet tracked down a birth/Marriage for either yet. We do know she had a cottage in Lelant in later years
I still can't make much sense out of the graves in Lelant churchyard. Some are obvious now thanks to the additional information, but the inscription for Sarah Janner Polglase indicates she is the daughter of Joseph and Frances Polglase , and sister of Annie. I know annie is Joseph's daughter, but I thought Frances was married was married to John! Perhaps a bit more research will make it clearer. Many thanks for the help I'm sure I'll get to the bottom of it all!

[Cornish Terrier]

Thanks for this most interesting information.

Will have a hunt round and see what information I can find for you about Elizabeth and Joseph (now that I have a few more details( but in the meantime:-

Rosa POLGLASE married Solomon J WARREN
1911 December Qtr Vol 5b Page 686 E. Stonehouse R.D.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Another little snippet:-

25th December 1889 at Lelant James BANFIELD married Louisa POLGLASE, 28, daughter of William POLGLASE.

Witnesses were Joseph POLGLASE and Rosa POLGLASE

Could be a connection there.

Have found Elizabeth Jane in 1881. (I think)

Based on your note stating that she died in 1937 at the age of 76 she would have been born about 1861 and the only one is:-

Dwelling: 15 Adelaide Street
Census Place: (Madron) Penzance, Cornwall, England
Source: FHL Film 1341564 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 2346 Folio 14 Page 21
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Sarah Ann HICKS W 52 F Scilly Isles St Agnes
Rel: Head
Occ: Greengrocer
Thomas R. HICKS U 24 M Scilly Isles St Marys
Rel: Son
Occ: Carpenter
Prudence M. HICKS U 22 F Scilly Isles St Agnes
Rel: Daughter
Occ: Tailoress
John HICKS U 20 M Scilly Isles Tresco
Rel: (Son)
Occ: Laborer
Ellen WEBBER U 18 F Scilly Isles St Marys
Rel: Boarder
Occ: Shop Assistant Draper
Sarah E.W. WEBBER 2 m F Penzance, Cornwall, England
Rel: Boarder
Elizabeth J. POLGLASE U 20 F Breage, Cornwall, England
Rel: Servant
Occ: Domestic Servant

Note she states her birthplace as Breage.

Have also just found her in 1901:-

Sutton Coldfield, Warwick
Grocer's Shop

John Griffiths, head, mar, 41, grocers provisions, Salop Pontesbury
Elizabeth Jane do., wife, mar, 40, Lelant
John H do., son, 14, Winthorpe, Notts
William Arthur do., son, 12, Winthorpe, Notts

I am damned if I can find them in 1891 and the same goes for the marriage.

But this looks to be Elizabeth in 1871:-

Lower Downs, St Hilary

Sabina Polglase, head, unm, 51, tin oredresser/stamps woman, Breage
Elizabeth Jane do., daur, 10, Breage
John Richards do., gson, 5, St Hilary

Sabina POLGLAZE bp. 15th September 1819 at Breage d/o Thomas and Sabina

Thomas POLGLASE married Sabina JEWETT 4th August 1813 at Breage (suspect that name should be JEWELL)

Cannot find a baptism for Elizabeth Jane but everything points to her being the illegitimate dughter of Sabina.

No sign of a connection to Joseph as yet, though.

1861 Census
Godolphin Downs, Breage

Sabina Polglase, head, unm, 42, working in tin mine, Breage
Lydia A do., daur, unm, 19, working in tin mine, Breage
Mary do., sister, unm, 39, domestic, Breage
Elizabeth J do., daur, 4 months, Breage

That's about all I can find for now so I will leave you to see what you can make of it.

It is frustrating not being able to find things like the marriage - I thought that would be a shoe-in given the other stuff I found.

Decided to have one last try at finding them in the 1891 Census.
Trying a search as follows:-

William Arthur or William A (no surname) born 1889+/- 1 Nottinghamshire.

And there is a William A GRIFFITHS born 1889 Basford, Notts - but he was the son of James and Charlotte.

That's it - gotta get away from this one for a while I think or I'll go batty.

[ann]

Thank you again for the information. It's been such a help and a great learning curve. Much of the information I have trawled through, but have put to one side because I have been trying to be too exacting. Thanks again, Ann

[Cornish Terrier]

A little more that I have found.

25th December 1889 at Lelant James BANFIELD married Louisa POLGLASE, 28, daughter of William POLGLASE.

Witnesses were Joseph POLGLASE and Rosa POLGLASE

William was born at Breage about 1825 and a check of the Breage PRs indicates that he was the brother of Joseph POLGLASE.

The Joseph who witnessed the above marriage would probably have been his son (Louisa's brother) and Rosa, therefore, was Louisa's first cousin.

And another look at information for Elizabeth Jane POLGLASE indicates that my earlier note must be correct - she was the illegitimate daughter of Sabina POLGLASE.

A search of registered births shows only three Elizabeth Janes born anywhere near the right time.

One at Helston R.D. 1st Qtr of 1859
One at Helston R.D. 4th Qtr of 1860
One at Penzance R.D. 3rd Qtr of 1864

Your Elizabeth's age was remarkably consistent throughout the Census and also at her death so the 1860 birth is her.

But just what is the connection to Joseph .........

I'll have another look around and see if I might be able to find something else.

[Cornish Terrier]

To make things easier for myself I have been adding all relevant data to my database.

And just looking at the William DUNSTAN side for a while I found something interesting ..... and darned confusing.

This is what I posted earlier as the marriage I found in FreeBMD:-

1852 December Qtr Vol 5c Page 556 Penzance R.D.
Edward Samuel DUNSTAN m. Eliza Jane POLGLASE

Now - I have found what 'must' be the marriage details in the OPRs which is where the confusion comes in. (To verify things I have also just checked FreeBMD again and there is no other possible option.)

Lelant Marriages

29 Nov 1852 (difficult entry to read) by license
Edward Dunstan full age Uny Lelant (father: William Dunstan)
Elizabeth Polglase full age Uny Lelant (father: Ralph Polglase)
Witnesses: Marianne Hosking, William Polglase

First thing is the names - Registered as Edward Samuel and Eliza Jane but recorded in the PR as Edward and Elizabeth.

And here Eliza names her father as RALPH.

But I have found the burial for her father Joseph at Phillack in 1839 when Eliza was about 9 so .....

And I suspect the William POLGLASE who witnessed this marriage was her brother.

The next of interest is the Census records:-

1861 Census - Lelant
10 Tyringham Place

Samuel DUNSTAN, head, mar, 32, mariner, Lelant
Eliza Jane do., wife, mar, 30, Phillack
Richard R do., son, 7, scholar, Lelant
Samuel do., son, 6, scholar, Lelant
Eliza do., daur, 2, Lelant
Elizabeth J do., daur, 7 mths, Lelant

1871 Census Lelant
Lelant Downs

Edward S Dunstan, head, mar., 41, mariner, Lelant
Eliza J do., wife, mar., 41, Lelant
Richard R do., son, unm, 17, miner, Lelant
Samuel do., son, unm, 16, miner, Lelant
Elizabeth do., daur, 12, scholar, Lelant
Elizabeth J do., daur, 10, scholar, Lelant
William do., son, 8, scholar, Lelant
John do., son, 5, scholar, Lelant
Joseph do., son, 3, scholar, Lelant
Thomas do., son, 3 months, Lelant

1881 Census

Dwelling: Lelant Village Or Town
Census Place: Uny Lelant, Cornwall, England
Source: FHL Film 1341562 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 2340 Folio 61 Page 4
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Eliza J. DUNSTAN M 50 F Phillack, Cornwall, England
Rel: Head
Occ: Labourers Wife
Bessie DUNSTAN U 20 F Lelant, Cornwall, England
Rel: Dau
Occ: Dressmaker
John DUNSTAN U 15 M Lelant, Cornwall, England
Rel: Son
Occ: Moulder (Iron)
Joseph DUNSTAN 13 M Lelant, Cornwall, England
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Tom DUNSTAN 10 M Lelant, Cornwall, England
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar

1891 Census - Lelant Town
2 Cottage

Edward Saml DUNSTAN, head, mar, 61, retired mariner, Lelant
Eliza Jane do., wife, mar, 60, Lelant
Thomas do., son, unm, 20, carpenter, Lelant

In both 1871 and 1891 I tried a search for 'Edward Dunstan' but the response was that there was no one of that name who had been born in Cornwall appearing in the Census.

Found them both times by searching for Eliza and in both cases Edward was cleary there.

This is undoubtedly the correct family.

Another confusing thing I found was with the marriage of William DUNSTAN .

He married (according to the OPRs) Elizabeth Ann CURNOW 26th June 1860 at Lelant.

Yet in the 1861 Census she appears as Elizabeth JANE.

Armed with this I will re-read your notes and have another try at finding a connection between Elizabeth Jane and Joseph POLGLASE.

[Cornish Terrier]

Next instalment.

Baptisms at Godolphin, Breage:-

2nd July 1855 William s/o Joseph and Sarah POLGLASE, labourer of Godolphin

17th April 1859 Elizabeth Sarah d/o Joseph and Sarah POLGLAE, miner of Godolphin

3rd October 1875 (born 24th June) Rosa d/o Joseph and Sarah POLGLASE of Godolphin

** I suspect Elizabeth Sarah is the same child as Sarah Jane who appeared in the 1861 Census.

Sarah was born about 1858/9 according to the Census.

In FreeBMD Sarah Jane POLGLASE born Helston R.D. December Qtr 1858.

There is NO record for Elizabeth Sarah in FreeBMD and the baptism was only a few months after Sarah's birth.

The 1871 Census shows the following:-

Herland Cross, Breage

Sarah POLGLASE, head, mar, 30, miner's wife, Ludgvan
Jane do., daur, 12, scholar, Breage
Edith do., daur, 9, scholar, Breage
Martha CARNE, boarder, unm, 44, retired farming, Ludgvan

Sarah has knocked 10 years off her age ;D and her daughter Sarah is now recorded as 'Jane'.

Note also that Martha, her sister, is living with her again.

Joseph cannot be found in 1871 so he was very likely out of the Country.
As a miner he could have been in South Africa as you have hypothesised but he could also have been in America or Australia.

I cannot seem to find any of Joseph's family in the 1891 Census.

The entire family is at Treneere, Madron, in 1901 but I think you have seen that one.

[Cornish Terrier]

Ann - Having no luck so have decided on another avenue of attack.

My reason for endeavouring to establish the relationship beween Elizabeth ?Jane Polglase, and Joseph Polglase of Treneere was that my grandmother and her children always talked about their aunts at Treneere

I presume from this that 'grandmother' was the daughter of Elizabeth Jane POLGLASE.

Could you confirm this and detail the links as you know them a little more precisely please.

My great gmother,Elizabeth J Polglase d 11.6.1937 aged 76 is buried in Lelant Churchyard with her husband John Griffiths d 4.12.911 aged 52 in a car accident as reported in The Cornishman 9/12/1911. ...............
I still can't make much sense out of the graves in Lelant churchyard. Some are obvious now thanks to the additional information, but the inscription for Sarah Janner Polglase indicates she is the daughter of Joseph and Frances Polglase , and sister of Annie. I know annie is Joseph's daughter, but I thought Frances was married was married to John!

Now for the problem with these graves.

I must presume that your information came from the Transcript of burials at Lelant???

If that is the case then I can explain your dilemma.

Sarah Janner is recorded as d/o 1938 and 1939.

1938 is Joseph who died in 1912
1939 is Elizabeth who died in 1921

Frances is actually number 1839 and was wife of John (number 1840).

But this does not add up either - Joseph (above) died 7th February 1912. (But there seems to be no reference to this event in FreeBMD :

And his wife was ELIZABETH which also does not match.

AHA - found part of the problem!

In the Transcript the dates of death for Joseph and Elizabeth have been mixed up - Joseph is recorded with the date for Elizabeth and vice versa.

In FreeBMD the 1912 Death is for Sarah so why the heck does it appear as Elizabeth in the Burials.

OK - I can work out all of this family from the Lelant Churchyard burials.

The only ones I had trouble with were John with wife Frances and mother Jane.

But I now know who they were.

John was the 'other son' (mentioned in a previous note) that I found in the 1851 Census and whose name was barely readable.
Looking at that Census again tonight I can certainly make out the name as John.

It would appear then that he was an illegitimate son of Jane given that her husband Joseph had died in 1839.

John appears to have married Frances JEWELL in 1869 but I cannot find them in any Census.

Still no sign of a link between Elizabeth Jane and Joseph - it has me stumped.

[davidkingmartin]

My "pennyworth", for what it`s worth:
William Dunston (var.) 1864 Uly Lelant, wife Susan Ellen Martin 1863, married 18 Sept.1881 (Madron?).
Parents: Edward Samuel Dunstan 1829 and Eliza Jane Polgase b.14 Nov.1830 Uny Lelant (see 1871 Census for family details).
In 1901 (Census) S E Martin had her m.-in-law living with her: Mary Ann Martin (b Ludgvan abt 1822). More detail on her forebearers available. Distant relatives!

David.