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Post by myghaelangof on Aug 24, 2008 6:26:17 GMT -5
Hi Guys, Have just returned from Cornwall Record Office with another conundrum. I read through various Phillips wills but only found one of any particular interest to me: Luce PHILLIPS of Gulval 15-8-1747. Luce, being sick and weak in body, left the following bequests: brother Henry TREMENHEERE £400; kinsmen Jacob PHILLIPS & William PHILLIPS £200 each; kinswomen Frances PHILLIPS & Jone(Jane?) PHILLIPS £200 each; Gregory, Elizabeth and Grace children of Gregory JENKYN of St Erth gent £20 each; Phillippa daughter of John CHUBB of East Looe gent £40; Uncles Samuel & James PHILLIPS; kinsman Samuel PHILLIPS of Plennyn; the said John CHUBB, Elizabeth DAVIES widow & Mary the wife of John STEPHENS the younger of St Ives 27/- each for mourning rings; My brother Abel ANGOVE the younger £20 to buy mourning ......; everything else to John CHUBB. WITNESSES: Abel ANGOVE, John CHUBB & John WILLS. ********************************************** So who were the above players? For 'brother' I read brother-in-law, but who are kinsmen? Are they close cousins? Looking at the named gentlemen first I have found the folowing: Abel ANGOVE = Jane PHILLIPS 9 Feb 1729 Phillack; Henry TREMENHEERE = Mrs Joan BADCOCK 5 Oct 1729 Madron; Gregory JENKYN = Jone PHILLIPS 16 Mar 1727 Perranuthnoe; John CHUB = Phillippa PHILLIPS 1 Dec 1732 Perranuthnoe. This would appear to be the John CHUBB who became Mayor of Looe. Considering the christian names of the above wives, probable sisters of Lucy, has lead me to the family of Matthew PHIILIPS of St Erth, who baptised Phillippa 1705, Jone 1702, Henry 1699, Jone 1697, & Elizabeth 1695. But no Lucy, yet! We must remember that Jone and Jane can easily be mistranscribed. On this last assumption I now have the names of Samuel, James and Matthew PHILLIPS as brothers, and inferring that they are part of the Zennor families. More so, James could be my direct line discussed elsewhere. The IGI lists baptisms of the above named children: Gregory, Elizabeth and Grace to George JENKYN of St Erth; Phillippa daughter of John & Phillippa CHUBB baptised at Looe. This will is particularly interesting for me, as my grandparents were Cedric ANGOVE from St Just and Marjorie CHUBB from Saltash. I believe the ANGOVE line goes back to Abel, and that the CHUBB line could go back to John CHUBB mayor of Looe. Yet prior to my grandparents meeting circa 1928 I'm not aware of any contact between the two families! Any thoughts on the Phillips lines gratefully accepted. Who is Lucy? Best wishes to all, Mike
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Post by myghaelangof on Aug 24, 2008 9:35:22 GMT -5
I have just noticed on the West Penwith Resources site the following burial entry from Gulval: Mrs. Luce Phillips 12-Jul-1747 So, maybe she wasnt a spinster, or a Phillips. Lucy also had a sister Margaret Phillips "of Gulval" who died around the same time and named "my sister Lucy Phillips". Margarets estate was administered by Abel ANGOVE and John CHUBB Who was Lucy?
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Post by trencrom on Aug 25, 2008 1:03:22 GMT -5
Mike, I am not familiar with the family in question, but I guess my first question would be: was Lucy's marital status identified in the will? If she was a Phillips widow, then some of the legatees who you found marrying Phillips women could be sons-in-law to Lucy, if she had daughters with the names you discovered. It could also be that one of the two "brothers" was actually a biological brother to Lucy and not a brother-in-law. Going just on what you have posted I wonder if Tremenheere in particular could be in this category. "Kinsman" is one of those frustratingly vague terms that as I understand it simply denotes a relation, and not necessarily a blood relation. If Lucy was a Phillips by marriage her Phillips "kinsfolk" could therefore be in-laws, or even stepchildren. Perhaps check for any other contemporary Philips wills or Tremenheere wills in case they shed any further light on Lucy or the other folk named in her will. Hope this helps a bit,
Trencrom
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Post by myghaelangof on Aug 26, 2008 3:21:30 GMT -5
Thanks for your thoughts Trencrom. I think we might have to have another trip to the record office! The transcript of the will clearly states "Luce PHILLIPS spinster of Gulval", yet the dates tie in with the transcript burial entry for Mrs Lucy PHILLIPS. I have searched Phillimore Cornwall for a Phillips marriage to a Lucy to no avail. There is also the will of the same date (!) for Margaret PHILLIPS leaving everything to '"my sister Lucy PHILLIPS". All sorts of possibilities to make them 'sisters' I did consider the possibility that Henry was a Phillips, and located a 1709 marriage at Camborne for Henry PHILLIPS of Gulval to Mrs Margaret Tremenheere, widow. Given that Lucy died in 1747 it seems unlikely to be the same Henry, although Margaret could have been a young widow. The hunt goes on. Have a good day one and all, Mike
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 29, 2008 22:23:05 GMT -5
Mike, Mike, Mike - What are you trying to do to me. ;D Just back online and you throw the Phillips family at me. (Do I detect a hint of sadistic pleasure involved here somewhere. ) Seriously - I reckon I will be able to explain quite a lot of this for you but the detail will have to wait until I have had some sleep. I won't reread the whole thread right now but will pass some comments on some of what has been mentioned. When we get into the definitions of 'brothers and sisters', 'cousins', kinsmen or kinswomen and even, sometimes, father or mother - we are dealing with a lot of confusion. At different times each of the above can mean something different to the term we know it today. Cousins and kinspeople could be actual cousins etc. but they could also be aunts and uncles or step-relations for example. Mother or Father could actually be describing 'in-laws'. And the mention of the Testator as MRS Luce Phillips is another interesting one. As far as I know from what I have seen over the years it is really a quite simple answer. A female in her adult years who was financially fairly well off and had probably lost both parents was often referred to as 'MRS' to describe her standing. Luce (or Lucy) was indeed unmarried when she died and the Death (or Burial) reference mentioned is the same person. Basically we are dealing with the family of Henry PHILLIPS who married Frances (m.n. unknown) sometime before 1655 and very likely at or close to Zennor. Henry was 'of Gulval' when he wrote his Will in 1692 and his burial appears in the Gulval Parish Register with the reference 'of Zennor'. Henry and Frances had 10 known children and among the sons we find James, Jacob and Samuel. And there is also Matthew who is the fellow from Tredrea in St Erth so you have gleaned that connection pretty well. Luce was the youngest daughter of Henry and Frances' eldest son who was also named Henry. This is where the TREMENHEERE connection comes in. Henry Phillips (Luce's father) married Margaret (nee BRAY) at Camborne in 1709. (He was baptised at St Keverne by the way.) Margaret had been previously married to John TREMENHEERE so I must now assume that 'brother Henry TREMENHEERE' was actually a 'step-brother'. Henry and Margaret had four children, all daughters. Jane baptised at Gulval in 1710 but I know nothing more of her just now. Although she may possibly be amongst those mentioned in the Will if I have a closer look. Margaret baptised 1712 and buried a couple of months later at Gulval. Margaret baptised 1713 at Gulval and buried there in 1737. And finally Luce who was baptised at Gulval in 1716. Henry died in 1724/5 but I have not yet identified a burial for Margaret. Frances and Jone Phillips were daughters of Luce's uncle Jacob Phillips who married Sarah MICHELL at Ludgvan in 1698. Jacob and William also belonged to this family and I suspect the Samuel PHILLIPS 'of Plennyn' was the third brother. Now comes a part where I will have to sit down and take a long and serious look at things. Luce names Uncles Samuel and James PHILLIPS and her father certainly had brothers of those names. My problem is that I have uncle Samuel buried at Gulval in 1738 which means I have probably identified the wrong Samuel in this case. I think you are on the right track with most of those you have mentioned but I won't go any further on it until I have had a chance to check right through all my own work and check what 'new' data I have acquired in the last couple of years that may not yet have had the attention paid that is now required. Keep at me about this one as I would really like to get it all sorted properly. One of those families that I spent a lot of time on years ago and finally had to leave in the 'too hard basket' until something fresh turned up. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. CT
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Post by myghaelangof on Aug 30, 2008 16:13:58 GMT -5
Just when I thought a quiet Saturday night was on the cards CT is back. Welcome, and many thanks for your thoughts on the Lucy Phillips family. With Phillips info coming in all the time I have had to extend my dining table, and go for another bottle of Tribute (I'll have one for you as well Ian ;D) From the info you have given on the St Keverne link, it seems that Lucy has named all of Jacob's children (Frances & Jone, Jacob & William, plus Samuel born Gulval 19th Jan 1704) Lucy's father Henry would have been 54/55 when he married Margaret BRAY, and 61/62 when Lucy was born. I know its not impossible but could we possibly be missing a generation here? More importantly though, if Lucy had 2 sisters named Margaret who died in 1712 and 1737, who is the Margaret PHILLIPS who names her sister Lucy in a will the same date as Lucy in 1747. The purpose of me exploring the PHILLIPS family in detail is to identify my James PHILLIPS who married Alice OATS of St.Just in Zennor in 1718. It would seem likely that if James was of Zennor, then he was part of a PHILLIPS family that had remained in Zennor - and James son of Matthew PHILLIPS son of Matthew and Judith (SWEETE) seems highly likely. Given that this James had brothers Matthew, Samuel and Henry, it also seems highly likely that Henry PHILLIPS of St.Keverne was a brother to Matthew who married Judith SWEETE at Zennor in 1645. Looking at St Keverne Hearth Tax returns for 1662/64 we find Henry PHILLIPS with 1 hearth. Also in St Keverne we find a baptism of John P. in 1676 to an Arundell PHILLIPS. Aarrgghhh!! This brings me back to my other big mystery, in the Madron pages, re who is Arundell SHAKERLEY? The PHILLIPS family married into the SHAKERLEYs in the late 1700's. Again - what is the Arundell connection? A search of Phillimore for Cornwall reveals only one other person with the christian name Arundell, and that was Arundell PRIOR in the late 1700's. I can see why CT left this family as a 'mission impossible' but we appear to be making inroads, and I shall make it my mission to research the PHILLIPS as fully as possible in the coming months. Comments noted re references to kinsman, cousin, mother in law etc. I think we have all come across the changing use of language as can be seen in the current thread on base/bastard which was probably a fairly innocuous term in years gone by. Best wishes to all, Mike
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 1, 2008 0:53:19 GMT -5
Margaret Phillips, spinster, of Gulval Will written 16th February 1737 Will proved 13th March 1737
That's the information I have but I will try and double-check it later on tonight if I get the chance.
Just briefly reading your note before I get a few hours sleep then have quite a bit of paperwork to work on that is, unfortunately, not gelealogy related. (Has to be done before 1530 tomorrow !)
I agree that Henry looks a bit old but from all the information I have looked at over the years there appears no other answer.
I have details of his Will of 1721 where he leaves wife Margaret a tenement in Camborne. Also mentiones daughters 'Jane' and Margaret but I have a couple of queries with that.
Mainly, was the name 'Jane' misread by the transcriber and it was actually 'Luce' - especially given that we know both Margaret and Luce were still living until 1737 and 1747.
Until later.
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Post by myghaelangof on Sept 1, 2008 11:28:04 GMT -5
Ian, Given the amount of research you have put in over the years I'm sure its perfectly feasible for Henry to have been baptised 1655, married 1709, and died 1724. After all, even in 1724 he wouldnt have been an old man. I always question these sort of things over the years, as some people try to make the known info fit, without considering other possibilities. Not you though. Another angle on the age is that he died only 15years after marriage. Barring mining accidents and disease, I have found it more likely for us men to have a second marriage than the ladies. I have someone going into Truro on Wednesday and will ask them to check the dates of Margaret PHILLIPS will, in case I made a mistake. (Yes it does happen, all too often!). Henry and Margaret did have a daughter Jane, and she was the oldest, so one might expect her to be mentioned. Lucy at age 4 when he wrote the will might have been deemed a bit young? Or maybe Margaret was to provide for her? Are there any other PHILLIPS snippets that could be looked up on Wednesday?
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Post by myghaelangof on Sept 1, 2008 15:28:28 GMT -5
Cornwall Record Office online index does list two wills for Margaret PHILLIPPS spinster of Gulval. One for 1737/8 and the other 1747. Could be two different Margarets?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 2, 2008 2:15:14 GMT -5
Mike - it will be nice to have someone else working on the Phillips family. It should make things easier as we can compare notes and findings as we go. Now for some comment. Your mention of the 1747 Will for Margaret Phillips being in the CRO Index as well as that of 1737 prompted a thought. Here is something from Kathie's Probate Index:- This confirms what I thought as soon as I read your note - although proved in 1737 Margaret's Will was never administered and hence the 're-proving' of said Will in 1747. I would guess that it is dated soon after that of Lucy in that case but it might pay for you to take a look at it in any case just to be sure. (Remember that Lucy was the executrix) Now, as for Henry - I remember being concerned about his age at marriage when I was looking at this family 'all those years ago' but could find no other solution. But I think there has always been some reservation in the back of my mind. However, lack of any other solution suggests that it must be correct. Here are the marriage details from the Camborne Online Parish Register:- 16th November 1709 Mr Henry Phillips of Gulvall Mrs Margaret Tremenheere, widow 6th April 1703 Mr John Tremenear of Penzance Mrs Margrett Bray And here is young Henry :- Henry Tremenhere son of Mr John of Penzance, dec'd. baptised 26th April 1707 at Camborne So we now know that John Tremenheere died sometime before the 26th April 1707 and I can tell you that he was not buried at Camborne. Unfortunately I don't have the Madron/Penzance burials for that period but I would suggest that would be where we would find him. AS for the problem of Henry's Will and the confusion over the name of Jane - I am not sure. If transcribed correctly and it was Jane there are two things to consider. 1. What happened to Jane and why was she not mentioned in the Wills of either of her sisters. 2. I should think there would have been some mention of Lucy whether it be a direct bequest or mention of some provision being made for her. I am still inclined to think that the name was probably Luce and has been mistranscribed but my mind is open. Another note I have regarding this Will is that the transcriber may simply have missed the name of Luce. However, here is what I have in my database as a quote from that Will:- "daughters Jane and Margrett (under 21) to be kept out of tenement in Boskennis, Lelant, after the death of their uncle James Phillips" Your thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2008 3:54:16 GMT -5
Hi CT
I have a burial at Penzance dated 25th December 1706, for John TREMENKEEK (Mr), Merchant. - extracted from the Madron Parish - burials at Penzance.
I see according to G B Millett that the name TREMENHEERE was well known at St Mary's Church, Penzance. On display in the church was an achievement displaying the arms of Tremenheere - with an inscription relating to John Tremenheere, Merchant who exchanged his life for a better on 23rd July, 1701, in the 51st year of his age, being the son of John Tremenheere of Penzance, husband of Sybella who was the daughter of Thomas Worth of Penryn.
Thought this may have been of value.
Lannanta
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 3, 2008 15:20:49 GMT -5
Value - nah! not much BTW how much is Gold these days? ;D Now, was 'our' John the son and grandson of the two gentlemen referred to by the illustrious Millett? Does your reference to Millett infer that you have, or have access to, a copy? If so I would like a little elaboration on the Tremenheere family if you would be so kind. IGI shows 24 events for John Tremenheere dating back to the 1500's but, unfortunately, no sign of a baptism for 'our' John. I will work through a few of them that like likely for the scenario you have displayed. John s/o John baptised 11th April 1704 I would say is most likely the son of John and Margaret (Bray) and, according to IGI, he was buried in 1710. According to IGI John Tremenheere married Sibell Worth in 1684 which would mean that 'our' John would be, at best, about 19 when he married Margaret Bray. Whilst far from impossible I think it more likely that John was not a son of that marriage but very possibly the son of a Henry Tremenheere. I guess we should first consider the possibility that John may have been the son of John and Sibell. If he was only about 19 then one might expect that Margaret Bray was of similar age and, if older than he, not by a great margin. The question is - just how would that affect my conclusions as to Henry Phillips? Henry would be anything up to about 30 years her senior but even so it is probably not of great concern and not necessarily altogether unusual. Problem is that I can find no Margaret Bray anywhere near any age to have married Henry Phillips. Oh well - I think we might have to rely on Wills for this one unless something extraordinary turns up. Time for something else now so will leave you to ponder.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2008 17:48:07 GMT -5
Morning CT
I do have a copy of Millett and the First Book of the Parish Registers of Madron, and the following entries appear in the book, spelling as it appears in the book:
Madron baptisms: 16/11/1628 - John, son of Henerye Tremenheere 10/9/1637 - Blanch, daughter of Henry Tremynheere 16/8/1640 - William, son of Henrye Tremenheere 28/11/1647 - Rebecca, daughter of John Tremenheare ?/5/1649 - Henry, son of John Tremenheare
Madron Marriages: 9/10/1614 - Henery Tremenheere and Ann 6/7/1646 - Francis Tremenheere and Mary
Madron Burials: 28/11/1631 - A child to Henry Tremenheere 4/7/1642 - Henery Tremenheere 21/9/1647 - Jone Tremenheare 28/9/1647 - Ellenor Tremenheare 27/2/1648 - Rebecca, daughter of John Tremenheare 19/4/1657 - Wearne Tremenheare 10/11/1661 - Anne Tremenheare, widow 3/10/1665 - Anne, wife of Jo Tremenheare, marchant 2/10/1676 - John, son of Henry Tremenhear, gent
The following are entries in the book that were recorded from parishes other than Madron: Marriages: 8/4/1687 - John Carveth, gent, and Mary Tremenheere of Penzance, at Ludgvan 26/7/1710 - Mr John Denneard of Bideford, and Mrs Ann Treninheer of Penzance, at Morvah
Burials: 14/10/1595 - James, son of Henry Tremenheere, at Ludgvan 9/12/1708 - James, son of Mr John Tremenheere, at Helston 16/12/1724 - Francis Tremenheere, at Helston
A couple of notes that are included:
In 1693, John Tremenheere, Marchant, was a Magistrate of Penzance. In 1813, William Tremenheere was the Vicar of Madron.
As does the following note (rather long I am sorry):
St Mary's Church, Penzance, formerly a Chapel of ease to Madron, has few monumental inscriptions of more than a hundred years old and none of an earlier date than the commencement of the last century. Its oldest and most imposing monument is that erected to the memory of one of the Tremenheere family, which has been long and honourably connected with the town and neighbourhood. It occupies a somewhat elevated position on the south side of the chancel, and originally was placed over a pillar on the wall space between the arches, directly opposite the most eastern of the two southern doors in the south aisle of the old Chapel, the demolition of which was begun in July, 1832......... (goes on to explain the arms of Tremenheere but it is quite difficult to state here as there are bits missing)......The inscription, engraved upon a central panel of black veined marble, is as follows:- Near this Place Lyes the Body of Mr John Tremenheere, Merchant, who Exchanged this life for A Better the 23rd of July, 1701, in the 51st year of his Age, Being the son of Mr John Tremheere, of Penzance, the only Person that Endowed this Chappell, and an affectionate Husband of Sybella, Daughter of Thomas Worth, of Penryn, Gent. She in respect to his Memory hath caused this Monument to be erected.
On the north wall of the present Church is a tablet in memory of a descendant of the above-named John Tremenheere, and since the inscription alludes to the foregoing (the persons commemorated too being also connected with two Vicars of Madron), it will scarcely be out of place here, though it is more modern than others already described. It is composed of pure white marble on a darker background, shaped after the manner of a sarcophagus, on the upper surface of which rests a partly unrolled scroll with a pen lying across it, whilst branches of cypress droop over each side; above all are placed the arms and crest of Tremheere. On the sarcophagus is engraved:-
In the vault of his Ancestors, in the middle aisle of this Church, lies interred WILLIAM TREMENHEERE, Esquire, an eminent Attorney, a friendly father and an affectionate husband, who died on the 14th day of June, A. D.:1780, aged 48 years, a lineal descendant of the gentleman who alone endowed the ancient Chapel (here built) of this town, (which about this time was called Buriton). Also with him CATHERINE, his wife, a most amiable woman, a kind mother and an affectionate wife, who died on the 12th day of October, A. D: 1812, aged 79 years, a daughter of the Revd. Walter Borlase, L:L:D: of Castle Horneck. This tablet to the memory of his parents, as a tribute of filial respect, regard, and affection, is dedicated by their eldest son WILLIAM, A:M. and Vicar of Madron.
Phew!!
Lastly there is a brief summation of William Tremeheere as Vicar of maron, instituted 25th November 1812. He died on the 26th June 1838 aged 81 years, as stated on the fly leaf in the 4th book of the registers, and was buried at Madron on the 4th of July following.
I hope this is of some value.
Lannanta
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 5, 2008 18:49:59 GMT -5
Thanks Lannanta - All very useful information and I think there are a couple of entries there that will help me out with another section of the Tremenheere family. Unfortunately it does not seem to help us much with the husband of Mary Bray and indicates that he may have been baptised elsewhere. Will cotitate over it and see what other resources I have available that might give some clues. CT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2008 3:35:19 GMT -5
CT
As discussed I have the Penzance burials from the Madron Parish from 1700 to 1783 and there are a number of Tremenheere entries - spelling as it appears hence unusual alphabetical listing:
Mr William Tremenheen - 17 June 1780 Henry Tremenheere - 9 October 1767 Henry Pendarvas Tremenheere - 18 April 1770 Lydia Tremenheere - 2 July 1769 Mary Tremenheere - 6 August 1775 Mary Tremenheere - 15 October 1766 Mr Walter Tremenheere - 11 March 1760 Mrs Joan Tremenheere - 8 March 1779 Sybella Tremenhere - 9 December 1738 Mr James Tremenhere - 30 September 1745 Mr Thomas Tremenhere - 20 October 1726 Mr William Tremenhere - 27 November 1744 Mrs Catherine Tremenhere - 28 September 1751 Mrs Sybella Tremenhere - 31 May 1743 John Tremerhere - 22 June 1745 Mr John Treminheek - 25 December 1706 Mr John Treminheene - 25 July 1701 John Treminheer - 4 July 1710 Mr Henry Treminheere - 9 December 1714.
Regards
Lannanta
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