Rosewall family (and Tyack & Arundell connections)

[gandolf]

A few weeks ago, Zenobia and others were discussing in the thread 'Dwens Hampton Tyack's children' on the Hampton board about the possibility that the Mary who married Charles Tyack might have been the daughter of Andrew Rosewall.

Having been looking at the various wills, together with what marriage, burial and christening records I have been able to find, I tend to agree with Zenobia.

The family as I have it at the moment:

James Rosewall born c.1618, died 1680/1 at Towednack.
married Elizabeth who died after 1680/1.
Children:
Andrew Rosewall born c.1640, married Mary Stevens.
Mary Rosewall born c.1642 (more on her below)
James Rosewall born c.1650, married Elizabeth ??

James in his will dated 9 Nov 1680, proved 18 Feb 1680/1 names his wife Elizabeth and his children as James, Mary w/o Hugh Rosewall (should be Rosemenews), and his dau-in-law Mary described as widow. James also names his brother Waerne and indicates he has grandchildren.

NOTE: no mention of a son called Andrew. However, that Andrew Rosewall was the son of James is made clear from Andrews will.


Andrew Rosewall b. c.1640, died 1680 Towednack
m. 27 Jul 1661 St. Ives, to Mary Stevens
Children:
Cheston Rosewall, chr. 1661 St. Ives - m. 1682 Thomas Major
Margery Rosewall, chr. 1664 St. Ives, poss. died bef 1670
Mary Rosewall, chr. 1667 St. Ives, - m. c.1682 Charles Tyack
Wilmot (Wellmett) Rosewall, chr. 1670 St. Ives - m. Michael Curnow
Ann Rosewall, chr. 1676 St. Ives
Elizabeth Rosewall born ??

Andrew Rosewall in his will dated 9 oct 1680, proved 23 Nov 1680 names the following beneficiaries:
6 daughters - Cheston, Mary, Margery, Wellmott, Ann, Elizabeth
sister Mary, w/o Hugh Rosemenewes ("£20 & her husband shall have nothing to do with it, but it shall be for the good of my sister and her son Francis Arundell")
Brother: James
Wife: Mary
Father: (unnamed - but James died a couple of months after Andrew)

The naming of Andrew's sister as the wife of Hugh Rosemenewes conclusively ties Andrew as the son of James, since James names his daughter as the wife of Hugh. As does the fact that Andrew’s wife Mary would have been a widow when James made his will a few weeks after Andrew’s death.

Andrew's widow Mary remarried 14 May 1690 at St. Ives (although recorded in St. Ives register as at Penzance) to a widower Morice Dyer, and she died a few years later in 1696 at St. Ives.

Although at first glance Mary Rosewall, daughter of Andrew and Mary seems a bit young to be the wife of Charles Tyack, however I believe it does actually fit. Charles Tyack and his wife Mary must have married around 1682 or early 1683 (first child christened late 1683). At this time Mary Rosewall would have been around 15-16 years of age assuming she was christened as an infant. Somewhat young based on what seems to be the average for Cornish lasses, but not impossibly young. Given a know childbearing range for Charles Tyacks wife Mary of at 26 years (1683 – 1708), she couldn’t have been any more than about 20 or so when she started, so a couple of years earlier at age 17 would match quite nicely.

I can’t find any evidence that Mary Rosewall died as a child (not conclusive in itself I know), and Charles Tyack’s wife Mary died 1746, which would make her about 77-78 assuming that she was indeed Mary Rosewall. A good age for that period and consistent with Mary Tyack being one and the same as Mary Rosewall. The appearance of the names Andrew and Wilmot/Wellmet as children of Charles and Mary Tyack also supports the fact that Charle Tyack’s wife was Mary Rosewall.

--------------------
Now coming back to Mary Rosewall, daughter of James & Elizabeth Rosewall.

As mentioned above, Mary Rosewall married Hugh Rosemenews on 25 June 1676 at St. Ives and had at least three children: Jane, Hugh and Mary in the following 6 years.

What is somewhat confusing is the fact that when Andrew Rosewall leaves his bequest to his sister Mary, wife of Hugh Rosemenews, he adds the following condition: “£20 & her husband shall have nothing to do with it, but it shall be for the good of my sister and her son Francis Arundell”

Initially I read this as meaning that there was another sister who had married Francis Arundell. However, on re-reading it I realised that it must relate to Mary and that she is the mother of Francis Arundell.

There are two christenings at St. Ives with a father called Francis Arundell: Francis, chr. 19 Aug 1660 and Ann, chr. 12 May 1663.

Also, Andrew Rosewall was caught up in a court case regarding non-payment of tithes in 1680 just before his death. Named in the documentation as witnessing the evidence being given are Ezechiall Arundell & Francis Arundell Esqs.

According to Vivians Visitations, Francis and Ezekiel (Zeakiell) Arundell were brothers born in the 1620s, to William Arundell and Dorcas Groase, the then scion of the Arundells of Menadarva. Although the family is recorded as based at Camborne, son Francis is recorded as being of Madron. The only record of a marriage between 1640 and 1680 anywhere near West Penwith involving a Francis Arundell is in 1656 at St Ives when Francis Arundell, son of William and Dorcas marries Dorothy Saffin. According to Visitations, Francis and Dorothy do have a daughter Ann, who since she married 1690 could have been born 1663, but no son Francis is recorded.

The confusing part relates to the Francis Arundell christened 1660. Andrew Arundell’s will has Francis Arundell Jnr as one of the witnesses, implying a Francis has a father also called Francis Arundell. It also seems likely that the Francis Arundell witnessing the will is the same person named as the son of Mary, and nephew of Andrew.

Given the above and the lack of evidence for a son Francis to Francis and Dorothy Arundell, it would seem that Francis Arundell (as many gentry of the day did) had a bit on the side with Mary Rosewall and fathered a child on her that he then acknowledged as his own. Although the christening was in 1660, it is possible that the Francis was born a few years earlier (although his mother would have been only mid teens at the time).

[trencrom]

While not familiar with the family in question, I think what you are proposing is both well-argued and sounds very plausible.
A Francis Arundell bought Trengwainton manor in Madron from the Cowlings in 1681 or a little earlier (the quitclaim is dated from that year from memory) so I am assuming that this is the Francis senior that you refer to.

Trencrom

[gandolf]

Apparently, the momumental inscriptions in the Madron church support the theory that Francis Arundell Snr only had the one son, William to his wife.

As recorded on the West Penwith website as a transcription from Lake's Parochial History:

Here lyeth the body of Francis Arundell, of Trengwainton, who departed this life the 10th day of August, Anno Domini 1697; and was buried the 13th day of the same month; who married Dorothy the daughter of John Saffin, of Sutton, in the county of Devon, Esq., by whom he had one son and two daughters.

[trencrom]

A thought ...
Have you seen "West Penwith in the time of Charles II" published a number of years ago by the Penwith Local history Group. I don't have it to hand but from memory there is some biographical information on various Towednack and Zennor folk therein (as well as some folk in other Penwith parishes).

Trencrom

[gandolf]

Hi Trencom

No I am not familiar with "West Penwith in the time of Charles II".

If anyone does have a copy, would be interested to find out what it has to say about lesser mortals such as the Rosewalls, Hollas, Tyacks, etc, etc.

[trencrom]

I have now checked my copy of "West Penwith". Nothing in the index for Cocks, a sole reference to Tyack in Penzance, some info on Rosewalls, some of which you already have, eg re the tithes situation.

Trencrom

[gandolf]

Trencom sent me some info via PM that does change slightly my original theory about Mary Rosewall and her having a son Francis Arundell. For that reason, I thought I should also post my response here, since it is relevant to the discussion.

While Trencom's new information does change the starting point for the theory I was working from, I don't think it actually changes the outcome, as per the arguments below.

From Trencoms PM to me:

Some information from Elsa Clee's article entitled "Families and Neighbours in Towednack: connections and conflicts" in "West Penwith", page 55 that may be of interest...

The article mentions the bequest of 20 pounds to Andrew's sister Mary in the will, and that the will adds that her husband "shall have nothing to do with the same" but then the article goes on to say that the money concerned was to be invested "ffor the good of my said sister and her son as ffrancis Arundell of Trengwanton Gent shall think fitt", and that the last-named person is described as "my very good freind".

As for the above, the first time I read it I thought that yes, this seems to confirm the theory I proposed in my original post in the Rosewall family (and Tyack & Arundell connections) thread on the St. Ives board.

This is the summary extract that appears on Zenobia's page..

ANDREW ROSWALL, yeoman, of Towednack

written: 9 Oct 1680
proved: 23 Nov 1680

6 daughters: CHESTON, MARY, MARGERY, WELLMOTT, ANN & ELIZABETH 20 L. each
sister: MARY w/o HUGH ROSEMENEWES 20 L. and her husband shall have nothing to do with it, but it shall be for the good of my sister and her son FFRANCIS ARUNDEL
wife: MARY the main profit of the land I hold in Uny Lelant, St. Just & Towednack
brother: JAMES ROSWALL my wearing apparel
his 2 children (not named) 12 d. apiece
father (not named) 12 d.
godchildren: 12 d. apiece
ROBERT COUCH, gent. for making my will 10 sh.
wife MARY all the rest & executrix

Andrew "A R" Roswall

witnesses: FFRANCIS ARUNDELL JUN., ROB. COUCH

In the original, the line ending "my sister and her son" ends at the far right of the page with the name Francis Arundell appearing on the next line. This gives the impression that the son is named Francis Arundell.

However, the correct interpretation from Trencom's quote is equally valid - that is the son not being named, and there is a reference to Francis Arundell of Trengwainton being as "a friend" hence no bequest.

That the will describes Francis Arundell of Trengwainton does seem to conclusively tie him to being the Francis Arundell (c.1620 - 1697) son William Arundell and Dorcas Groase, William being the then scion of the Arundells of Menadarva. This being the man who bought Trengwainton around the 1680ish according to one of your posts.

However, I don't think it will actually change anything in the proposal I made that Andrew Rosewall's sister had a child out of wedlock to Francis Arundell of Trengwainton (possibly prior to his marriage to Dorothy Saffin).

There is the christening at St. Ives on the 19 Aug 1660 of a Francis Arundell with a father called Francis Arundell. And as per above, Francis Arundell of Trengwainton had married Dorothy Saffin in 1656.

Vivian's Visitations shows Francis Arundell of Trengwaington as having three children: William, Ann and Dorothy. No mention of a son Francis.

Francis Arundell of Trengwainton's monumental inscription in the Madron church supports this : ..married Dorothy the daughter of John Saffin, of Sutton, in the county of Devon, Esq., by whom he had one son and two daughters

Yet we have the will of Andrew Rosewall being witnessed by Francis Arundell Jnr. There are no other recorded Francis Arundells in the Mendarva or Trengwainton Arundells (or indeed other Arundell lines that I am aware of) that could have been alive at the time. Yet the Jnr on the end of the name clearly implies that there is also a Francis Arundell senior somewhere.

Logically, the Francis Arundell Snr must be one and the same as the only known Francis Arundell around at the time, namely Francis Arundell of Trengwainton. By the way, Francis of Trengwainton could not have been the "jnr" since his neither his father, grandfather or greag-grandfather, nor any of his uncles, great-uncles or great-great-uncles had the name Francis.

So who is Francis Arundell Jnr? Again logic would suggest that he is the Francis Arundell christened 1660, the son of a Francis Arundell. This Francis would by definition be Francis Jnr, son of Francis Snr. Given the severe shortage of candidates for the father, it seems that he could only be Francis of Trengwainton.

The fact that Francis Jnr was old enough to be a witness to Andrew Rosewall's will is consistant with a christening in 1660, meaning a birth no later than that year and possibly up to five years earlier.

Hugh and Mary (nee Rosewall) Rosemenewes did have a son Hugh christened June 1680, just a few months before Andrew's will was made out. While it is possible that Andrew was referring to his nephew Hugh, if it was intended for him why specifically exclude the boys father from having control of the money? As well, why would Andrew give his nephews (sons of his brother James) only 12 shillings and give young Hugh £20? A very big discrepancy!

While the more accurate reading of the will leaves Mary's son as un-named, I still think the incorrect reading of the will may have inadvertantly revealed the true state of affairs.

Taking all the apparent inconsistencies re Francis Arundell Jnr, I still think that he was an out-of-wedlock child to Francis Arundell of Trengwainton and Mary Rosewall, and that in 1660 Francis of Trengwainton acknowledged the child and had him christened as an Arundell.

The fact that Andrew Rosewall describes Francis Arundell of Trengwainton as a good friend doesn't hurt the theory. If Francis of Trengwainton acknowledged Francis Jnr as his child, he may well have provided some financial assistance raising the child, and indeed this may be how Andrew Rosewall came to know Francis of Trengwainton - through Mary and her child.

As I said, even though I mis-interpreted the will due to the way the extract appeared on the web page, the facts would still seem to support the theory.

[Cornish Terrier]

I am beginning to agree with the theory that the wife of Charles Tyack may well have been Mary Rosewall.

I had never really noticed it before but the theory may be further aided by the fact that Charles and Mary Tyack appear to have had TWO sons named Andrew.

Andrew bp. 14th November 1686 at Lelant
Andrew bu. 18th April 1708 at St Ives

Andrew bp. 31st October 1708 at Towednack
Andrew bu. 31st October 1708 at Towednack

I am not absolutely certain of the burial of the second Andrew.
The information was given me by John Tyack (of Canada I think) many years ago but the entry does not seem to appear in the Hoblyn Transcript.

But the baptism is certainly there in the BT's as Andrew s/o Charles Tyack so, as there appears to have been no other Charles Tyack about then there were two sons named Andrew.

Certainly strengthens the case being put forward.

On the rest of the information in this thread I shall have to ponder.

[Zenobia]

Oooops!

Reading thru this I realize now that I must have read the original will wrong.

The way I made the abstract indicates to me that I thought Francis Arundell was her son.

Sorry to have caused such a mess.

A few thoughts:

1. If the son Francis of Francis Arundell chr. in 1660 was illegitimate, the parish register should have indicated that fact.

2. If the will of Andrew mentions his sister's 'son' (unnamed) and she did indeed have more than one son, then the will would be very unclear. Certainly if she had both a legitimate son and an illegitimate one, Andrew would have been very specific; otherwise it would be easy for interested parties (perhaps Mary herself, being pressured by her husband) to see to it that the money possibly intended for the illegitimate son would go to the legitimate one instead. I don't believe Andrew would have gone to the trouble of providing for an illegitimate nephew and then worded the will in such a way as to make it ambiguous and open to misinterpretation.

3. It is not uncommon for a testator to state that a husband of a female relative have no influence over the money of the female. By law, any monies inherited by a married female would normally be taken and controlled by her husband, so a testator who disapproved of the marriage of a female relative, or had reason to believe they would be misused or frittered away would use this wording to make sure the husband was not legally able to get his hands on it. I have a will of an ancestor who used this exact type of provision in a will to keep his daughter's money out of the hands of her husband (who was an insolvent debtor).

I think the most straightforward interpretation of the will is that the provision was intended for Mary's son Hugh, that Andrew for some reason did not trust his brother-in-law, and that he chose a trustworthy friend with some degree of power to see to it that the funds remained to the use of the minor child, and did not get taken by Rosmenewes.

A question:

Did the entry of the baptism of Francis son of Francis state that the father was 'gent', 'esg' or otherwise identify him a son of Francis of Trengwainton? Were there non-gentry Arundells in the area?

I wish I had access again to original will to recheck it; however, my films are all in limbo in California and I am now living in Ohio...

[gandolf]

Hi Zenobia

Don't fret, we are all human - ie all make mistakes!

On re-reading my postings in this thread so as to refresh myself with what had been said, I realise that I may have been a little enthusiastic and got carried away with my theories.

Firstly, as to the baptism of Francis Arundell (Jnr) in 1660, I have not seen either the original PR or a detailed transcript of them, only the info that is in the IGI on the web (unfortunately less detailed). So I can't say that the baptism involves a father who is a gent.

You are right, the lack of inclusion of a wife on the baptismal record (quite common in the period) does not by itself mean that Francis Arundell Jnr is or could be illegitemate.

So I have no "evidence" for Francis being illegitemate. However, allowing for the fact that it is an early period when church records can be a little patchy, I have yet to find evidence of any other Arundells (let alone Francis Arundells) in the area at the time.

To my knowledge, other than Francis Arundell of Trengwainton, no other Arundells had moved into Penwith that early, since the family seat(s) were primarily further into the northeast of Cornwall.

Your arguments about Mary's son Hugh Rosemenewes being the beneficiary are quite valid and yes I have seen similar bequests in other wills also. There is still the large discrepancy in Andrew's bequests, but on re-reading the bequest in the earlier post, it could be simply that it was because Andrew thought Mary's husband was not adequately providing for her.

While I cannot say for certain that Mary was the mother of Francis Arundell Jnr, there still seems to me to be a number of unanswered questions here.