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Post by Glazin2018 on Apr 15, 2022 19:25:29 GMT -5
CT and Zib
Appreciate the investigating. I decided to try a different path and followed the daughter Mary Ellen Penberthy, who appeared in the 1880 census living with her father John and husband Oscar ALPAUGH. They married in 1879 but Mary died 4 years later in 1883 so little to no use at the moment regarding her mother. I will start to look at the other siblings William and James.
Lannanta
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 16, 2022 4:50:07 GMT -5
He was actually registered as 'Charles Wills' at birth and just to help keep my records straight I am about to enter some brief details about him into my database. I will at least enter his birth and parentage details along with marriage to Ann Selina Uren and the details from his death certificate. That should be enough for now to differentiate the two Charles Wills.
BTW - I was just checking the family of John Wills and Eliza Hicks - they also had a son named Richard born a couple of years after Charles!!
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 16, 2022 6:10:42 GMT -5
Right then - I don't want to go too far off topic with this one but we do seem to have an intertwining of information relating to two separate Charles Wills. In order to try and sort out some of the conflicting information and so that I could get the two Charles Wills adequately separated in my database I began checking further into the man from Osceola who apparently married Ann Selina Uren. And doing this has POTENTIALLY led me to the answer regarding the death of the husband of Catherine Quick Penberthy!!! There is an Ancestry Tree for the other Charles who was born at St Agnes in 1845. He is supposed to have married Ann Selina Uren in 1872 with the place on the Ancestry Index page for this tree showing 'Mi, Chimbu, Papua New Guinea'!!! But in the body of the information it merely shows 'MI' which does make much more sense. However, according to the 1880 US Census for Michigan there were children in this family born as early as at least 1869 so there is some guesswork involved. BUT .. in trying to determine the identity of Ann Selina Uren I noticed that two different Census records give her place of birth as either Illinois or Wisconsin!!! And her age through the Census seems consistent with a birth year of about 1850 or 1851. But now for another twist November 2nd 1867 Copper Falls, Michigan Thomas HOLLOW resident of Bay State age 25 born Cornwall England miner and Ann Selina UREN resident of Copper Falls age 17 born WISCONSIN married by Christian Flexar, Minister of the Peace Ann Selina Uren was burn in Wisconsin about 1850 and my suspicion now is that she was widowed and then married Charles Wills. Returning to the potential death of 'our' Charles Wills. I have already shown in my recent posts that the 1915 death of Charles Wills at Osceola which was presented as that of 'our' Charles must instead of been the man who married Ann Selina Uren as Osceola was the place of residence of that particular family. Now, in the information I have just read regarding Charles and Ann Selina it is stated that Charles Wills died at CALUMET 26th December 1913!!! There is no source to support this so I have to now do some more searching but that certainly fits much more neatly with what has already been discovered. And now to do some more hunting to see if I can find some documentary evidence. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 16, 2022 6:34:53 GMT -5
I am having no luck so far with the death of Charles Wills in 1913 but I have found something else that appears to support my theory about Ann Selina Uren. A Thomas Hollow died in Detroit 27th April 1931 age 59 with the follow details as points of particular interest:- Birthdate - 10th November 1871 Marquette Michigan Father - Thomas Hollow (birthplace England) Mother - Ann Celina WILLS (birthplace Wisconsin) And on the back of that minor success it might be time for a break. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 16, 2022 10:32:16 GMT -5
A little more information to add to the pot - I have now identified the Thomas Hollow who married Ann Selina Uren at Copper Falls in 1867.
Thomas Hollow was baptised at Lelant 23rd August 1840 son of John Hollow (born Zennor c.1788) and Ann Uren (1798 Towednack daughter of Robert Uren and Amy Stephens).
I had narrowed Thomas down to two possibilities with the other as yet unaccounted for candidate being Thomas Henry Hollow who was born at St Ives in 1841 to Thomas Hollow and Mary Ann Oliver. Thomas Henry was still at home in 1861 but I so far have no trace of him after that Census.
The piece of information that solved this dilemma was found in the Ancestry collection - U.S., Civil War Draft Registrations Records, 1863-1865 which shows that in June of 1863 at Clinton County Michigan a 'Consolidated List of all persons of Class I, subject to do military duty in the Sixth Congressional District, consisting of the Counties of Clinton and c & c, State of Michigan' included the following names:-
Residence - Cliff Mine Name - Thomas HOLLOW Age - 22 Occupation - miner Marital Status - single Place of Birth - Cornwall, England Former Military Service - none Remarks - no doubt an alien
Residence - Cliff Mine Name - Richard HOLLOW Age - 25 Occupation - miner Marital Status - single Place of Birth - Cornwall, England Former Military Service - none Remarks - no doubt an alien
Thomas and Richard were the two youngest children of John and Ann (nee Uren) Hollow born at Lelant in 1837 and 1840 respictively.
Cliff Mine is near Eagle River in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and just over 10 miles (17.6km) NE of Calumet. Copper Falls, where the 1867 marriage took place, is around 5 miles NE of Cliff Mine.
I am still to find a death record for Thomas but brother Richard returned to Cornwall and married Mary Ann Clarke at Lelant 7th July 1877.
In 1870 Thomas and Ann Selina Hollow were at La Salle, Illinois along with daughter Grace who was born in Michigan and then age 1. According to his death certificate son Thomas was born 10th November 1871 at Marquette Michigan and both he and Grace can be found in the family of Charles and Ann Selina Wills at Calumet in 1880. There were two other children in the 1880 household - daughter Elizabeth J Wills age 4 and son William age 2. Thomas and Grace were also listed as 'Wills' but the gap between Thomas (1871) and Elizabeth J (about 1876) suggests that Thomas Hollow may have died between 1871 and 1876 after which his widow remarried. That would seem to be consistent with Thomas' brother Richard returning to Cornwall and marrying in 1877.
More information as I find it.
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 16, 2022 16:39:54 GMT -5
Okay, after another break and some further investigation I have a little more to offer. Still no luck finding the 1913 Charles Wills death record and likewise no luck with the marriage of Charles Wills to Ann Selina Hollow. However, I have managed to fill in some gaps and find other information of interest. First of all I now suspect that Thomas Hollow may have died in Illinois. The reasoning behind that is that Illinois was home in 1870 and no death record can be found in Michigan although there is one 'minor' problem .................. The death record for his son Thomas Hollow in 1931 states that he (i.e. Thomas junior) was born at Marquette Michigan 10th November 1871. It is possible this was an error on the part of his wife Anna who was the informant at death but it is equally possible that the elder Thomas died in 1871 and Ann Selina returned to Michigan where her son was born. For the moment that remains an unanswered question ................... Next on the agenda is the (as yet not located) marriage to Charles Wills which now appears to have taken place in 1872 or possibly very early 1873 as the first child for Charles and Ann Selina was a daughter Elizabeth Jane born 23rd May 1873 at Calumet. No death record found for her yet but another Elizabeth Jane was born to this couple at Calumet 22nd July 1875. I have now found birth records for 9 children to Charles and Ann Selina from 1873 to 1892 and then Ann Selina had two children from her first marriage giving a total of 11. I also found a death record for Ann Selina. She died in Detroit 9th February 1928 and, according to the record, was buried next day at Calumet! Seems a little quick to me but that is the information on the death certificate with the informant being her son Thomas Hollow. Ann Selina Uren was born 6th March 1851 at White Oak Springs Wisconsin to Richard Uren and Elizabeth Webb who were married at Gwinear, Cornwall, 29th August 1841. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 16, 2022 17:06:19 GMT -5
Findagrave has a grave in Ishpeming Cemetery, Michigan, for a Charles Wills. The only information on the headstone is:- WILLS Brother Charles 1851-1823 The husband of Catherine Quick Penberthy was baptised in 1849 so a birthdate of 1851 is not too far off. And it is possible that Charles and Olivia were separated/divorced which would account for her reverting to her previous married name of Bartle in 1920. The one difficulty in proving this one way or another is that Charles can still not be found in the 1920 Census ..... even with the availability of the above information! But ............ it 'could' be him. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 16, 2022 17:36:30 GMT -5
AHA!!! Following on from my last post I decided to see if there were any other Wills graves in Ishpeming Cemetery ...... and perhaps I have hit the jackpot! There are actually quite a number of Wills graves for Ishpeming Cemetery in Findagrave but the following are those that are most of interest:- Henry Wills - 28 Oct 1840 - 1898 Ellen Wills Tredinnick - 17 Nov 1842 - 26 Oct 1911 Charles Wills was a son of Thomas Wills and his second wife Ann Morcom whose other children were:- Henry - birth registered December Qtr 1840 Ellen - birth registered December Qtr 1841 (baptised 11th January 1842 Helston) Elizabeth Ann born 1843 Christopher born 1844 Alfred born 1846 Emily born 1847 died 1848 Ellen Mills married John Tredinnick in the December Qtr 1877 Redruth District and had a son James Thomas Tredinnick at Camborne in 1881. The family apparently went to the US in 1886 and James Thomas Tredinnick died at Ishpeming in 1899. Ellen died at Ishpeming 26th October 1911 (as above) and was buried 28th October Ishpeming Cemetery. Henry Wills apparently died in British Columbia but there is a gravestone/memorial for him in Ishpeming Cemetery. So it does appear quite possible that at least the year of death for Charles Wills might have been found! Problem is - just where did he die? CT
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Post by zibetha on Apr 17, 2022 1:30:00 GMT -5
There are films of Houghton County death records reported from various townships on Family Search. I had a bit of trouble finding them. The images are not indexed. I think some of the records needed here are not yet available online but probably are held at the local courthouses. I could not find any death record for either Catherine Q or Charles Wills starting from the 1900 Census and moving forward. I'll insert the link as I did find other information that helped me. Having checked my tree, it turns out that the reason I was aware of Ann Selina and Thomas Hollow is that I am a DNA match to a great-great-grandchild of theirs although it seems VERY distant. Zib www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/176195?availability=Family%20History%20Library
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 17, 2022 2:48:28 GMT -5
I think I have come across some of those records in the past and had forgotten about them so it is good to have a link available.
Two points for now.
1. If the information on the death certificate of Thomas Hollow junior in 1931 is accurate then he was born in Marquette so that could also be where his father died. But as I mentioned in an earlier post the elder Thomas might also have died in Illinois given La Salle IL was their location in 1870.
2. Charles Wills - if the Ishpeming headstone/memorial does belong to the husband of Catherine Penberthy then it appears to be a memorial only so Charles might have died virtually anywhere. The one useful piece of information is the death year of 1923. His brother Henry apparently died in British Columbia but then that was 25 years ealier.
Re the 1913 death date for Charles Wills that I find in one of the Ancestry Trees - it could be that is slightly incorrect and should read 1923 which would fit with the Ishpeming information. If that were the case then it potentially gives us an accurate date of death.
The one thing all this has done is to narrow down some timespans. We can now place the death of Thomas Hollow as sometime during/between the years 1870 to 1873 and for Charles Wills to 1923 (or perhaps 1913)
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 17, 2022 4:39:17 GMT -5
Another slight twist - when he married Anna Tudray at Calumet in October 1891 Thomas Hollow jnr stated he was age 21 and then in the 1900 Census he stated he was born in November 1870 so we need to make some adjustments.
We now have two sources indicating Thomas was born in 1870 with those being the marriage record and 1900 Census with the information presumably supplied by Thomas himself. The informant on his death certificate his wife Anna who gave his birthdate as 10th November 1871. The suggestion here is that Thomas was actually born in November 1870 rather than November 1871.
What makes this more interesting, and perhaps more confusing, is that the date stamped on each page of the 1870 Census for La Salle, Illinois, where this Hollow family was enumerated is 5th November 1870!
A road trip from La Salle Illinois to Marquette Michigan today is 706km (almost 439 miles) with an expected travel time of 6 hours 26 minutes in light traffic. I suspect that in 1870 it might have taken just a little longer than 6 and a half hours to make that journey ................... in fact I'm not sure it would have been possible for a woman within five days of giving birth to have made that little trip by November 10th!
Still a few 'ifs, buts and maybes' to deal with.
One final point for this post - I just (finally!) remembered to take another look at the 1900 Census to check one important little item - length of time Charles Wills and Ann Selina Uren had been married. And the answer is that at June 1900 the stated number of years the couple had been married was 28.
Therefore Charles Wills and Ann Selina Hollow nee Uren were married in late 1871 or the first half of 1872.
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 17, 2022 6:14:06 GMT -5
Has anyone ever really looked at the Penberthy family that arrived at New York in 1873? It consisted of the following:- John Penberthy age 35 Eliza age 22 Willimot age 16 Rich age 14 Mary age 10 Willm. age 8 James age 6 So has anyone actually noticed that aside from mother Wilmot another important person is missing from this list? CATHERINE! According to the 1900 Census both Catherine and her husband Charles Wills had also arrived in 1873. Charles appears to have arrived aboard the City of Limerick 7th July 1873 but so far I cannot find Catherine Penberthy and also still no sign of her mother anywhere. CT
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Post by Glazin2018 on Apr 17, 2022 16:51:22 GMT -5
CT
Yes for sure mate, my earliest question to myself was did one part of the family travel with the father John and did Catherine travel with her mother. I have now looked through the families of all the children except Catharine and Eliza Jane and have found nothing that gives a hint as to the demise of mother Wilmot. Indeed I keep asking myself - did she ever get on the ship, or did she get on the ship and die before landing, or did she travel with Catharaine.
Lannanta
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 18, 2022 4:42:39 GMT -5
We know Wilmot was enumerated in the 1871 Census and we know she was not listed with the family when they arrived in New York in 1873. The same applies to Catherine but with an exception - she can be found in the 1900 Census with husband Charles Wills in a household that includes her brother James Penberthy. At that time Catherine and Charles both stated they had arrived in the US in 1873. As mentioned in a previous post I found what appears to be this same Charles Wills arriving in New York in 1873 aboard 'City of Limerick'. I have also checked and rechecked FreeBMD and the GRO Index for any sign of a death record for Wilmot. I even went as far as checking on forename only using wildcard characters to try and cater for all possible variations of the name Wilmot (Wilmet, Wellmott etc.). But I did restrict the search mainly to the years 1871-1873. Another source I checked for a possible death for Wilmot was the UK Registers of Births, Marriages and Deaths at Sea, 1844-1890 but again without success. I suspect that Wilmot and Catherine must have travelled together but what I do not understand is why they might have travelled separately from the rest of the family. It would certainly be helpful if we had access to the outgoing passenger lists for this period but unfortunately none appear to be available prior to 1890. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 18, 2022 4:53:46 GMT -5
BINGO! BINGO! BINGO! I THINK I HAVE JUST FOUND THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Remember that John Penberthy's age on the passenger list is 35 when he would actually have been about 45. And note that Wilmot would have been aged about 49 in 1873. It finally occurred to me to try a few new variations for my search bearing in mind that Wilmot and Catherine both appear to have had multiple forenames - i.e. Wilmot Thomas and Catherine Quick. My first attempt was to see if any 'odd' Catherine Quicks turned up on passenger lists between 1871 and 1875 and when that failed I tried for her mother using just 'Wilmot' initially. And this is what I found:- Arriving New York 5th November 1873 Ship - 'Idaho' Steerage Passengers Wilmot Pemberthy age 35 male labourer Cathne Pemberthy age 18 female spinster I think that puts us one step closer to closing the case on Wilmot. CT
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