Charity Hocken born about 1707

[white]

Any help appreciated with one of my few very long standing brick walls. (in Cornwall)
Charity Hocken married John Maddern 18th. June 1730 at Sennen.
He was bapt.19th. Dec. 1703 at St.Levan. Both buried at St.Buryan. At one time I thought that Charity was the one bapt.1708 at St.Erth. However have since found that this one died as an infant.
Another suggestion from a contact was that she was the daughter of William Hockin of Gwithian who married Jane Stephens at Phillack 18th. Feb.1705/6, but no baptism found for her.
So I am still searching for a Charity Hocken to fit the bill.
Roy

[cornishmaid]

Hi Roy

At first glance, I found the following baptisms in Cornwall:

1. Charity Hoskyn, Parish: Phillack - bapt. 11 August 1706, Father: Humphrey, Mother: Margery.
2. Charity Hocken, Parish: St Erth - bapt. 27 Feb 1708/09; Father: William.
3. Charity Hocken, Parish: Trewen - bapt. 3 January 1718/1719, Father: John, Mother: Mary.
4. Charity Hocking, Parish: St Just in Roseland - bapt. 21 March 1718/1719, Father: William, Mother: Lovedy.

You say the Charity Hocken born St Erth died as an infant? I found one burial at St Erth of a Charity Hocken, but that was on 1 February 1708, ie before the child above was baptised. Could this have been her mother? No age is given on the burial records I found unfortunately.

I assume the baptisms of 3 and 4 above are too late, although some baptisms were given to older children.

Have you got the names of John and Charity's children? They may give us a few clues.

Not sure this helps at all, but thought I'd get the dialogue going

[white]

According to the transcripts on The St.Erth Page both the baptism and the burial were in Feb.1708/09. The burial on the 1st. and the bapt. on the 27th. Both for Father, William. (?)
John Maddern and Charity's children were,
John 1731
Martha 1733
Honour 1735
Martha 1738
Francis 1741
William 1744
Honour 1746
children 1-6 at St.Hilary number 7 at Sennen
Francis, Martha and John all being Maddern names.
Thank you for trying to help, Roy

[Zenobia]

Any possibility that Charity was a widow when she married, and not a Hockin by birth?

[white]

Her age at burial was given as 69 (buried 27th.Mar.1776 at St.Buryan), so she was 23 when she married John Maddern.
I suppose that it is possible she was a widow, but I would think the odds are against it.
I have also tried all the variants on Hocken, that I can think of, without success.
Roy

[Cornish Terrier]

Time for me to jump in and see what I can offer.

Have just spent an hour or two working on some different scenarios for this problem but without much success I am afraid.

But I do see a couple of problems that might need discussing.

Firstly - Charity was buried in March 1776 at the age of 69 which (if accurate ) would place her birth at about 1705/6.

The only John Maddern i could find buried at St Buryan who might 'fit the bill' was buried in 1792 at the age of 95.

This places his birth at about 1697 - unless there has been a transcription error.

Given I cannot find a marriage record for his father, Francis, it is also possible that John's was a rather late baptism but ...

That aside - the question that must be asked is "What were John and Charity doing in St Hilary for all those years?"

Also - what is the significance of the names Martha and Honour which were used twice each by John and Charity??

IF John was indeed the son of Francis Maddern then it appears he had a sister named Martha who died at the age of 20 in 1731.

Was Martha or Honour the name of Francis Maddern's wife???

1700-1809 - I can find no burial for a possible wife of Francis Maddern at Sennen.

St Hilary must have some significance here but we need to find what it is.

As for the St Erth possibilities and the confusion with the baptism and burial of 'a' Charity Hosken there:-

There are a couple of possibilities - but that is all they are.

The Parish Register may have been a problem for the transcriber and it is possible that entries were recorded 'out of order'. (ZENOBIA SHOULD BE ABLE TO HELP HERE)

What I mean is that some PRs were very untidily kept and entries were written in margins or other parts of a page which made it appear they were relevant to the particular year in question.

This may be one such case but, without looking at the original PR myself, I cannot be sure. (It must be considered a possibility)

There is also the possibility that there may have been the burial of one followed by the baptism of a second Charity - even though I have found no record of a baptism for the 'possible' earlier child.

Thirdly - William Hocken had a daughter named CATHERINE baptised at St Erth 25th November 1706.

It is just 'possible' that this was the 'Charity' buried 1st February 1708.

From here I think we need to consider searching for Wills to see if any clarification is possible.

About all I can do for now so will await responses.

[Zenobia]

Is the mention of St. Hilary a typo, or does it come in here somewhere?

Because I did find a William and Honour Hocken who had two children (also called William and Honour) baptised at Germoe during the right time period. If they had other children whose births were not recorded, they might be worth looking at.

Another thing to try is to see if there were any more Charity Hocken's baptised say 15-30 years after your Charity of interest and trace the fathers to see if they might turn out to be brothers of your Charity.

[Cornish Terrier]

Worth looking at - however the information on the first six children of John and Charity Maddern 'seems' ok.

The baptisms are all to be found in (dreaded) IGI with all six listed as child of John and Charity.

The burials of Martha (1733) and Honour (1737) can be found in the Transcriptions from the St Hilary OPC website.

Seems we have a little corroborative help here.

[white]

Just to fill in a few more details on John's parents.
Francis Maddern, etimated birth about 1675 married Ursula (surname not known) about 1698, probably at St.Levan, but registers not survived.
He was buried 23rd.dec.1743 at Sennen and she was buried 5th.oct.1753 at Sennen.
Francis was a Yeoman and I have his admin dated 16th.june 1744 and Inventory dated 3rd.march 1743/4.
John and Charitys son, William bapt.27th.may 1744 at St.Hilary married Honour Hicks 20th.nov.1764 at Sennen.
His will dated 12th.oct 1813 (of Sancreed) mentions property called The Gears of St.Hilary.
Please excuse wandering off the main subject but wanted to fill in some more detail.
Thanks Zenobia will check out the names you found.

[Cornish Terrier]

So Ursula is the one recorded in the Sennen Transcript (and OPR) as "Velsan".

Roy - would appreciate details of those Admons., Inventories and Wills if I may. (via PM if you prefer)

Just may give me a little more to work on in sorting out some other problems.

Now - William s/o John and Charity wrote his Will in 1813 but do we know just when he died and where he was buried.

Also - reverting back a little - we do not know the maiden name of Ursula.

But it does seem a little familiar as having been used in the Vingoe family around that area of the time. (Could be wrong )

However, you mention that you think the marriage of Francis and Ursula occurred probably around 1698.

From the St Levan PR Transcript:-

MADDERN Anne 14-Jan-1699 daughter of Francis and Ursula born 6-Jan-1699

But the following 'may' be a problem (from the same baptism TR):-

MADDERN Joan 7-Sep-1712 daughter of Francis
MADDERN Martha 10-Jun-1712 daughter of Francis

HOWEVER - I have information from a previous source.

Some years ago Bill Curnow sent me copies of his own transcripts of some of these PRs and here is what he found:-

1707 St Levan Baptisms

May 29 Richard Valentine, base son to Jane Blewet
July Thomasin, daughter to Robert Thomas
September 17 Joan (?) daughter to Francis Maddern
September 21 Jane, daughter to Charles Hearle

Alongside these entries I have pencilled in a note to "see also 1712"

1712 St Levan Baptisms

May 29 Richard (illegible, lost in a crease)
July Thomasin, daughter to Robert Thomas
September 07 (illegible), the daughter to Francis Maddern
September 21 (illegible), the daughter to Charles Hearle

In the last couple of nights I have made mention of the problems with some of these early PRs and it would appear this is a classic example.

As can be seen - (apart from the year) the dates and (where legible) names are identical in each case.

But it also indicates that the entries, for some reason, were duplicated.

Could it have had something to do with the recording of the Bishop's Transcript.

Would like some further thoughts on this.

[Cornish Terrier]

John and Charitys son, William bapt.27th.may 1744 at St.Hilary married Honour Hicks 20th.nov.1764 at Sennen.
His will dated 12th.oct 1813 (of Sancreed) mentions property called The Gears of St.Hilary.

OK - so now we have a reason for John and Charity being at St Hilary although we perhaps need to know just a little more given this Will is dated over 80 years after the first child of this family was baptised at St Hilary.

But we do now have something more to work with.

Zenobia's suggestion is definitely worth considering and we need to try and think of all possibilities.

Back to you and I hope I have helped.

[cornishpasty]

Hello Roy,

I have just read through this message board and can safely assume that we have the same Hockin (Hocken)/ Maddern people. Charity Hocken was born St Erth on 27 Feb 1708. She died on 27 Mar 1776 at St Buryan. She married John MADDERN 18 Jan 1730 at Sennen. John MADDERN was born at St Levan but I have no DOB.

I would prefer you to take a look at my Family Tree because it would be easier and quicker to find what you are looking for, rather than me trying to type it all out. ;D

I will contact you via PM with my details for the Tree.

Regards,
CP ;D

[white]

Hi Cornish Terrier,
Sorry for the delay in replying. I missed your input.
William s/o John and Charity was buried 29th.nov.1813 at St.Buryan.
To save me typing the wills etc here, they are all in the wills section of West Penwith Resources. Any trouble locating them please let me know.
I see what you mean about the differences in parish records and BTs. I have never encountered this before.
I based the marriage date for Francis and Ursula on the birth of their first children. Obviously only an estimate.
Thanks for your efforts, Roy

[Cornish Terrier]

Thanks Roy - I will try and take a look at those tonight.

And there are all sorts of funny little goings on that you will find when working through some of these families, documents, etc.

Sometimes the woods cannot be seen for the trees.

A cousin of mine told me several years ago - 'take on board every possible option, no matter how outlandish - explore and delete each option until you come to the only possible answer' (based on all available evidence, of course)

Hope to have more tonight or tomorrow.

[lipkatatar]

I believe that the Charity Hocken baptised in St Erth 1708 may have been the daughter of William Hockin and Phillip (? Angear) who married in Camborne in 1693. They had several children baptised in Camborne, the last in 1702, including a Charity, baptised on 11 September 1699. It is possible that they then moved to St Erth, not a great distance, and had several more children baptised there between 1703 and 1711, including a daughter, Charity who was baptised on 27 February 1708, a few weeks after the death of their first daughter Charity.