Richard WARREN md Margaret THOMAS 1823

[myghaelangof]

Time to look at another brick wall and hope someone has some ideas on the ancestry of these common names. I have avoided this one for many years!

Richard WARREN married Margaret THOMAS at St Just Parish Church on 11th Oct 1823, with witnesses Jno TREGEAR (church official) & Jno WALLIS. Who were they, where did they come from. I have identified at least 4 possible Richards, and 6 possible Margarets purely within St Just.

They had at least 11 children, in order: Margaret, Jane, Richard, James, Elizabeth, William, Amelia Thomas, William Thomas, John Thomas, Rebecca Williams, and Charlotte.

Curious that 3 children were baptised with the middle name of Thomas, and 1 with Williams. The naming patterns suggest that Richard could be the son of James and Margaret WARREN, baptised 27 August 1797 St Just. Was Margaret THOMAS's mum a WILLIAMS?

My direct line is through Jane who married Richard WILLIAMS in 1846 (see earlier post re this Richard!). At the time of marriage Jane was a spinster of Truthwall. I can place the Warren family at Truthwall on the 1841 census as well.

Additionally I have just obtained the death cert of Richard WARREN age 48, miner of Truthwall, died 5th June 1847 'accidental death from an internal injury to his head' informant Wm Hichens coroner St Ives. Can anyone tell me if the coroners records are available, as they may contain further relevant info?

I believe Margaret WARREN (nee THOMAS) can be traced through the censii thus; 1841 truthwall age 40; 1851 Tregeseal widow age 52, 1871 Trewellard age 76, 1881 Chapel Row age 86.

Confused, Mike

[Cornish Terrier]

Mike - I am not certain about the Coroner's Records but do think that there may be some availability.

Suggest you contact the CRO or the Redruth Studies Library about this.

Looking at IGI it would appear that the 1797 Baptism might be your man but I am hesitant to rely solely on IGI records.
There are a number of later baptisms in the area for Richard Warren and it could be possible that his was a late baptism so be aware of that.

The information you show looks promising but I will need some time to try and check it out.

Perhaps some of our other 'sleuths' can help a little as I am on 'borrowed time' with my ISP until I find a new one.

Should you have any updates then please post them.

If I have not answered within a few days you will know that my connection has gone and that it may take a little time to get back to you.

Ian

[myghaelangof]

These dark winter evenings are back! Looking at Margaret THOMAS again and would appreciate any thoughts.

I found 6 baptisms for possible Margarets in West Penwith, bearing in mind she states on the censii that she was born in St Just. They are:

1.Margaret, dgr of Thomas THOMAS & Jane chr 29 Dec 1805, St.Just.

2.Margaret, dgr of Martin THOMAS & Jane(Hill?) chr 5 Jun 1796, St.Just.

3.Margaret, dgr of William THOMAS, chr 3 Dec 1797 Madron.
4.Margaret, dgr of Ralph THOMAS & Margaret, chr 22 Jul 1793, St.Just.

5.Margaret Grills, dgr of John THOMAS & Jane, chr 3 Nov 1789, St.Just.
6.Margaret, dgr of Archelaus THOMAS & Joan, chr 1 Nov 1790, St.Just.

My Margaret married in 1823 by banns and 'consent of each other'. This suggests she was of age. She had children baptised from Jan 1825 until 1842.

A Thomas THOMAS of St Just wrote his will in 1838 naming his 'unmarried daughter Margaret'. This and the 'consent of each other' seems to preclude Margaret no. 1.

The date range of children 1825-1842 appears to preclude Margarets 4, 5 & 6. Although the last child Charlotte was baptised in 1842 4 years after the penultimate child (late baptism?). Charlotte is listed as age 10 on the 1851 census but I havent located her after that to confirm her age.

This leaves Margarets 2 & 3.
Looking at Margaret the dgr of William THOMAS baptised in Madron I have turned up the following other baptisms in Madron to a William THOMAS for the period 1770-1800:
Nicholas 1780, William 1781, Jane 1785, George 1787, Stephen 1790 (28 Nov), John 1790 (25 Apr), William 1791 (16 Oct), Mary 1793 (8 June), Ann Margaret 1793 (3 Oct), John 1793 (1 Dec), Mary 1793 (1 Dec), Margaret no 3 1797, John 1798, and Elisabeth 1800.

Looking at the baptisms for 1793 is it possible we have 3 William THOMAS's in the area.

I think that Margaret THOMAS no 3 is a good possibility, and that she has siblings Jane, William, John, George at least. The reasoning for this is that Margaret's daughter Jane has 12 children, 8 dgrs and 4 sons, the sons being named Richard, William Thomas, George and John.

There is a baptism in Madron for a William THOMAS in 1758 son of George THOMAS, and a marriage 1754 of George THOMAS to Jane HUGH.

I know naming patterns arent everything hence would appreciate the thoughts of the forum on my theory. I do need to find some supporting evidence somewhere, but at least I have a theory to work on.
I am off to the Cornish Studies Library in the morning (Monday) and hopefully they may have something of use.

Many thanks, Mike

[myghaelangof]

Went to Cornish Studies Library today and read the report on Richard WARRENs demise, reproduced below as it appears in the West Briton June 1847.

"On the same day (7th inst) in the parish of St Just in Penwith, on the body of Richard WARREN. The deceased was a kibble filler, working in Botallack mine, and on the Saturday preceding, was employed at the 150 fathom level, when a stone or some hard substance fell through the shaft and struck him on the head, depriving him of his senses for some time; but he afterwards recovered so as to converse with those about him, and to be taken to the surface, and thence to his home where he died shortly after. He was attended by three medical practitioners, who found no external bruises, but attributed his death to some internal injury produced by the blow"

Verdict Accidental death.
Unfortunately no names of any witnesses/family members, so no nearer to tracing the ancestry of Richard or his wife as yet.

[Cornish Terrier]

G'day Mike - I will try and take another good look at this just as soon as I get the chance.

Tied up with a few other long problems at the moment.

[trencrom]

Hi Mike,

While not familiar with the family in question I can offer the following ideas:

1. You have identified John Tregear as a church official, but who was John Wallis? Which other marriages does he appear as a witness to? Are they Richards, or Warren marriages?

2. Does Richard himself appear as a witness to any marriages?

3. Do you have Richard's death cert? Who was the informant?

4. Interesting that of the children named Amelia, William and John were, as you say, given the "Thomas" middle name. This could indicate that these given names were present amongst Margaret's immediate family. Since "William" appears twice this may indicate that this name was important to the parents.

A word of caution though: I have seen at least one case (in an 1850s Cornish family) where the mother's surname was used as the middle name for a son and yet the first given name of that child is from the father's, not the mother's, family.

"William" and "John" are too common to be of much help, but "Amelia" is uncommon. Perhaps check for any Amelias in the previous generation or two of either the Thomas or Warren families.

5. Re Rebecca Williams: yes, perhaps this points to the maternal grandmother's maiden name, I have seen another example of this in the early 1800s in Penwith, but it could alternatively be the maiden name of the paternal grandmother, and I have seen that in Penwith in the early 1800s too.

6. Interesting that the eldest girl and boy are apparently named after the parents themselves. Could the next four names therefore be those of the four grandparents?

7. Who was Charlotte named after?

8. What probate records have you come across for either surname in that time frame?

Hope this is helpful

Trencrom

[londoner]

Oct 19, 2009 12:51:26 GMT -5 trencrom said:

but who was John Wallis?

There were many John Wallis s but the most likely agewise is the one who m Honor Lawry at St Just on 27 Jan 1816, witnesses William Williams and Thomas Tregear
or one who m Grace Tregear (1787)
and one who m Grace Warren (1799)

there were several Wallis - Williams marriages at St Just and St Buryan so I dont think it will help the search for Margaret Thomas

As for Amelia - there were several (15 between 1817 - 1830) in St Just

[myghaelangof]

Thank you Trencrom, Londoner and CT for your input

I will have to look closer at the WALLIS connection, and look for Richard WARREN in other places next time I can look at the registers.

In the meantime I have been plotting 25 THOMAS families who were baptising children in St Just in the period 1780-1805 in the hope of building a THOMAS family tree. I may then be able to spot particular naming patterns within branches of the families which may help lead to my roots.
Down a different line of my family tree I already have the 1710 marriage of Gabriel THOMAS to Jane THOMAS, this marriage producing 5 sons and at least 20 grandsons. My work so far suggests that at least half the THOMAS's at the end of the 18th century link to this one marriage. I am finding many THOMAS-THOMAS marriages to complicate things

When I have pieced all these together, I will have a list of names to search for wills, having already searched the more likely looking THOMAS wills to no avail, I shall then start looking for the last will of those who married into the family.

The death certificate informant was the coroner, Wm HITCHENS, and unfortunately neither the death cert or the newspaper report name any other parties.

Yes, we do have some less common names in Amelia (though none appear to link to the family), Charlotte (not come across any earlier ones) and Rebecca (to look at). Any one of these could provide a vital link especially Rebecca Williams WARREN.

Re naming patterns I agree with Trencrom that the children could be named traditionally and I can see patterns forming in some of the other THOMAS families I am looking at.

Richard and Margaret's first children were Margaret, Jane, Richard, James, Elizabeth and William. The two leading contenders for Richard WARRENs parents are named James - Margaret, and William - Elizabeth. Both would fit. The two leading contenders on Margaret THOMAS' side are Martin - Jane and William - unknown wife. With this information it is possible to make various assumptions, including William THOMAS of Madron was married to a Jane.

Interestingly, and in support of Trencrom, the 7th-10th children all have middle names commemorating particular sides of the family, and the last, Charlotte, appears to be 'an odd one out'. Sorry Charlotte.

Many thanks for all the support, Mike

[myghaelangof]

Have just had a quick look through West Penwith Resources and identified the following marriages with a Richard WARREN witnessing:

1813 James MURRISH = Mary WARREN spinster

1815 Richard WEARN = Jane EDDY
altho also in 1815 Richard WARREN = Jenefer WEARN witness Richard WEARN.

1818 William WARREN = Alice WARREN
1830 William BENNETTS = Christina CHERGWYN

I could cross reference the signatures or marks (my Richard made his mark in 1823) along with the other Richard WARREN marriages to identify possible family/friend links.

I certainly shallnt run out of things to do!
Thanks again, Mike

[Cornish Terrier]

Mike - time for a couple of comments from down under.

Finally got to have a bit of a look at this problem and my first offering is that I believe Richard Warren to be more likely the son of James and Margaret.

From what I can see there are really only two options - Richard s/o James and Margaret bp. 1797 St Just or Richard s/o William and Elizabeth bp. 1801.

As Richard was recorded as 48 when he died in 1847 it should preclude the 1801 baptism and I have checked for the possibility of him being born a couple of years earlier.

But William and Elizabeth married in 1798 and there was at least one child before Richard.

James and Margaret were married in 1788 with son richard late in 1797.

From the information you have supplied the first child was a daughter named Margaret.

I think this might be a case of 'two birds with the one stone' in terms of name given that Richard's wife was also Margaret.

The next child was another daughter, Jane, and this may be a pointer to Margaret's origins but I may come back to her.

Third child was Richard and obviously named for his father.

But then we have child number four - James - and I think that he was named for his parternal grandfather.

Margaret Thomas is another matter altogether and she does not make things easier by 'ageing as she aged' so to speak.

I have noticed that from age 40 in 1841 she progressed to 52 in 1851 (no problem here given 1841 rounding).

In 1861 she retained her 52 status (and the census page is clear) but then in 1871 she has picked up a few years to become 76 followed by 86 in 1881.

It think it may be she who died in 1882 at age 86.

So was she born about 1799 or was she born closer to 1795??

The earlier date (1795) appears to have only one candidate - daughter of Martin - but with the number of sons in her family there is no Martin so I am tempted to discount this baptism entirely.

The 1797 Madron baptism (daughter of William) now seems the most likely option.

This would certainly explain the name of her son William Thomas Warren.

We all know about the name 'John' so I won't worry about him for now.

The two names that perhaps might give a clue seem to be equally as difficult - Amelia Thomas and Charlotte.

But there was a Charlotte Thomas baptised at Penzance 4th June 1784 - daughter of William!

Could this be the link?

I will do some more checking.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Well - I have looked at this problem from a lot of angles and keep winding up back in the same place.

Charlotte could still be a possibility and at the moment seems to be the best possible link.

But she was baptised in 1784 which would make her about 13 years Margaret's senior.

That in itself is no problem except that between her baptism and taht of our probable Margaret in 1797 another William Thomas is married.

And what appears to be the likely father of Charlotte was married in 1780.

I should think that would remove the possibility of Charlotte being an aunt to Margaret but she could be an older cousin.

In case anyone is lost what I am trying to do is to find out if the names of any of the children, particularly Amelia and Charlotte, might have been names of siblings, aunts/uncles or possibly direct cousins of Richard or Margaret.

The Thomas side seems the best bet for Charlotte particularly given IGI has only 12 of that name recorded for Warren and the earliest of those is 1805.

And the only Charlotte Thomas that seems to come close is the one I have been discussing here - bp. Madron in 1784 d/o William.

I have been unable to get anywhere at all with Amelia but the best chance still appears to be on the Thomas side.

The only other thing I can think of at the moment is that some of these were the names of good friends.

I have seen this in the Quick family.
A particular line of Quicks did not have the name Richard involved anywhere for 70 years or more - if at all.

Out of the blue a son is named Richard with that name not appearing anywhere that could be found on the bride's side of the family.

In the end the only solution was that this child was named after his father's brother-in-law Richard Baragwanath.

Another Quick couple used the name Philippa twice yet that was a name that did not appear in that particular branch.

Recent information showed that the husband left a Will leaving a bequest to the only daughter of his brother.
Until this point the 'brother' had not been linked to any family due to insufficient information.

Armed with this new data it was established that the brother was the John Quick who had married Phyllis Read at Madron in 1783.

Phyllis died in 1794 and it now seems obvious that the two daughters were named for her.

I will keep hunting around but that is the best I can do for the moment.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Some peculiarities:-

Richard died in 1847 at St Just from what I understand yet I can find no burial for him at St Just.

After baptising seven children in the Established Church Richard and Margaret all of a sudden baptise William Thomas Warren on the Wesleyan Circuit ...... and then return to the Established Church to baptise their last three children.

[Cornish Terrier]

Mike - I can now tell you that Richard was buried at Pendeen.

I don't have a burial date but I can confirm that is where he was buried.

Also - On the OPC site you will find a burial for a Richard Warren at St Just 4th December 1847 - age is 29

If you have access to the St Just Burials transcription on West Penwith Resources this same event has the age as 89.

I have had it confirmed from the OPC that the age is actually 29.

Both transcripts were done by the same person and I have arranged for him to be made aware of the fact so the WPR entry can be amended.

CT

[myghaelangof]

Ian,
Many thanks for your input on this couple. I concur with your thoughts.
James and Margaret WARREN are the most likely parents of my Richard given the age at death, although we all know how unreliable ages can be some times! There is also a Richard WARREN of Kenidjack age 48 buried in St Just 17-11-1851 who would tie in as being the son of Richard and Mary WARREN baptised in 1803.

IGI appears to be down for maintenance tonight otherwise I'd be trawling the WARREN's in more detail, however as you point out re burials there are quite a few Richard WARRENs kicking about. We do know that my Richard was working at Botallack, ie the northern side of St Just parish, towards Pendeen.

I see that Richard WARREN and Margaret JAMES married at Madron 1st Dec 1788, which would also tie in neatly with the baptism of Margaret THOMAS at Madron. If the WARREN and THOMAS families lived in the same locality they may have shared similar religious tendencies.

re the child William Thomas WARREN, baptised at the Penzance Wesleyan as you point out, he was not listed on the 1841 census with his family. In 1851 he lived at Tregeseal with his widowed mum, 1861 at Calartha, Pendeen, and 1871/81 at Tregaminion, Morvah. He's not getting drawn into St Just churchtown either.

I did look at a will for John WARREN tinner of St Just written in 1813 in which he names children William, Nicholas, Richard, Jane and Margaret, plus wife Margaret. With the exception of Nicholas, the same names repeating.

Will have a look at Charlotte when IGI up and running and will spend a good chunk of Sunday looking at the families and seeing what conclusions I can make.

Once again thanks for everyones input.

[Cornish Terrier]

Mike - I will be out for much of the day. Time of year to begin fuel reduction burns in preparation for the fire season.

But I will see what updates you have later on and have another look at the problem.

CT