James Mi(t)chell of Boscarne

[Cornish Terrier]

Tony - I have also been offline for a couple of days 'again'. (Damned rain keeps knocking out my server connection.)

I have a few thoughts 'wandering around in the back of my head' but need to check on a couple of things before I can properly reply to this.

However, I am pretty sure that Brittany is one of the (I think) seven Celtic Nations which would certainly account for Bretons fleeing their native land to head for Britain.

Off the top of my head the Celtic Nations were/are - Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Isle of Man, Brittany .... (Hmmm - perhaps it was only six so will have to check on that one.)

But I also have an idea that the name of Mitchell (var.) goes back way before the French Revolution.

In fact you will find numerous mentions of the name in the 1641 Protestation Returns which is quite a long time before the Revolution by my reckoning.

Will try and catch up on this one.

Best see if the new stove actually works (after I clear stuff off it) so that I can cook something to eat before heading to bed.

Ian

[tonymitch]

Thanks Ian.

My lot couldn't have been involved in the French Revolution as they were in Cornwall at that period, and obviously had been there for some considerable time.

As for Celts.....Do you know the definition of an Irishman....A Welshman who could swim. Brittany is certainly Celtic. Just look at their language and compare to Welsh. It is so similar an interpreter isn't needed. The Bretons and Cornish would have spoken the same language with different dialects, rather like a Glaswegean being understood down in Mousehole

Tony M

[trencrom]

From what I have been told Breton and Cornish, while very similar are not the same language. Cornish apparently has similarities with both Welsh and Breton.
This is largely because both the Welsh and the Cornish are descendants of the ancient Britons who were pushed back into the western fringes by the Anglo-Savons. The Cornish were known to the Saxons for a time thereafter as the "West Welsh". I recall reading somewhere that even as late as the sixteenth century the Cornish speaking folk referred to English as the "Saxon" language.
The Bretons were Britons who in the early medieval period migrated from Britain to the Continent, again probably in response to Saxon expansion.
Brittany was an independent or autonomous area for centuries thereafter. Interesting that a substantial part of the force that conquered Britain in 1066 were allies of Duke William's from Brittany.
I believe the other Celtic area is in northern or north-western Spain, possibly Galicia but not certain of its name.

[tonymitch]

Wow! This discussion starts off with poor Lesley asking about the Humphreys and ends up with a discussion about Celtic linguistics.

I know very little about the Cornish language but a wee bit about Welsh. I know that several of my Welsh speaking friends have very little difficulty in communicating with Bretons in Cymreig/Breton. I understand that the Celtic langauges developed into two main streams, 'P' and 'Q' . The 'Q' language is to be found in Ireland Scotland and Isle of Man. The 'P' stream is found in Cornwall, Britany and Wales. Many Cornish words have similar Welsh equivalents e.g. Pen, Du, Careg, Vean, (Pen, Ddu, Carreg, Fechan, = head, black, stone, small)

"Welsh" is an old word for "Foreigner" I'm not sure if it's Anglo-Saxon or Celtic, but the Germans use the expression Kauderwelsch (lit. chewing Welsh). The German equiavalent of Double Dutch.

Nadolig Llawen

Tony M

[londoner]

Nadalek Lawen ha Blethen Noweth da to one and All

[trencrom]

tonymitch said:

I understand that the Celtic langauges developed into two main streams, 'P' and 'Q' . "Welsh" is an old word for "Foreigner" I'm not sure if it's Anglo-Saxon or Celtic, Nadolig Llawen

Tony M

I have heard about these two streams too, either the same or similar to what you have described here.
"Welsh" meaning "foreigner" was the Saxon term. "Wales" and "Cornwall" were also the Saxon names for those places -- the locals called them "Cymru" and "Kernow" respectively.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year (Nadelik Lowen ha Bledhen Nowyth Da) to all.

Trencrom

[Cornish Terrier]

After a couple of long nights working at the Pub (with a couple of incidents), about twelve hours trying to sort out stereo, video, DVD and TV systems (with severe TV reception problems now to be sorted) and having just discovered I have online connection again I need to let this one rest until I have recovered from the 'medicine' I have been taking in trying to sort out all the above.

Hope all have had a great Christmas (I slept) and that you all enjoy a happy, productive and prosperous New Year.

Will try and get my head around this message soon.

Ian ;D

[londoner]

Hope your New Year festivities went well - all visitors safely returned home I have gone back to Simon Mitchell (son of James M & Margaret Paul) who married Ann Paul

"Ann PAUL was, I think, the daughter of Joseph PAUL by his second wife Margaret RAWLING."

I am inclined to agree with you on this one Ian, and I think Joseph's daughters are part of the link with my Jonathan Humphrys. (Simon's daughter Anne having married Jonathan after the death of her 1st husband William Harvey)
Joseph's daughter Margaret - bap Sennen 1709 - married Stephen Humphreys 1733/4
Elizabeth Paul (cant find a baptism but likely her sister) married Robert Humphr(e)ys Sennen 30.Jul 1741
Jonathan was bap 1748 s/o Robert.
I have been trying to sort out the Mitchells a bit and James who married Hester seems to be the missing link - we have assumed he was the grandson of James and Margaret but haven't identified his father - presumably James b 1712.
As for Ralph I suspect he was the son of William & Mary Mitchell of St Buryan bap 1776 who married Grace Weymouth (d/o Js & Thomasin) in 1802. He also had a son James (1816) who married Mary Roberts. There seem to be quite a few earlier Mitchells in St Buryan but I cant find a link to St Levan at the moment.

[tonymitch]

Lesley, have you any other info on the Mitchells prior to James 1744 who maried Hester Richards which will shed a little more light on the stuff Ian has? If so I would love to hear about it.
You are possibly quite correct in thinking that Ralph married Grace Weymouth. In his Will, his wife 'Grace' is mentioned as is his daughter 'Grace Weymouth'.

Been away over the New Year so that is why I haven't been pestering anyone. Had a good Christmas Day no calls on my time even though I was working covering for emergencies. How is it that the public don't seem to have any emergencies on Christmas Day. I have worked Christmas Day now for the past 20 or so years and only been called out twice.

Happy New Year to one and all

Tony M

[londoner]

Apart from the mention of James in the Humphrys will I dont have anything which is not available online, either at West Penwith Resources or IGI. I suspect that some of the St Buryan Michells (without the t - that seems to be a later addition) are connected with the Zennor lot but Ian knows more about that than I and it looks like the weather has sabotaged his connection again - he is very quiet! Hopefully not busy with fires.
Going back to your linguistic discussion Wallis (my family) is said to be derived from that same "welsh" foreigner. I'm not sure when they arrived in Cornwall - it is claimed that they can be linked with the Scottish Wallaces but I haven't gone back that far!
If I get anything new on the Mitchells I'll let you know.

[Cornish Terrier]

Lesley and Tony - do not be overly concerned with the spelling of the Mitchell surname.

I have seen it as Michell, Michel, Mitchel, Mitchell, Michall and more ...

I have seen 21 variations of my own surname - Trewhella - and have possibly missed a couple along the way.

In regards to the last entry on this thread - I have an idea that there may be some Zennor connection involved, as mentioned.

It will take a bit of searching but I think I can recall a reference to that area in a couple of Zennor/Towednack Wills.

There was certainly some sort of Trewhella connection as Prudence d/o John Trewhella and Katherine (Hingston) married Bernard Cock at Sancreed in 1726.

I am sure I have more than one Will where there is mention of areas around Sennen but I will really need to search hard for them.

The Mitchell (sic.) clan is, I am fairly sure, mixed up in these discussions.

Remember also that the Curnow clan became involved at St Buryan.

I may have to start recalling old thoughts about some of the interaction between people of Zennor/Towednack and the areas around Sennen, St Levan and St Buryan.

I remember thinking that much of it may come back to Land Ownership.

Remember that the people we are discussing would not have owned the land themselves but would have had lont-term leases.

Another family from Zennor that I am sure had connections around St Buryan was the Phillips family.

I must try to get some sleep so will leave you with these few thoughts.

[londoner]

St Levan - Sennen records will not give us anything earlier than 1694/1700.
In St Just there seem to have been no James Michells, lots of Williams & Thomases
in St Buryan I have found a possible candidate: James, son of Nowell aka Newton or Newhall Michell & Blanche, bap 1658 (IGI) Nowell & Blanche married 1650 at Paul.other offspring Solomon 1656(St B) and Elizabeth (1651 Paul) (solomon might have been simplified to Simon by later generations)
Was he related to the Nowell Of Gwinear (alias Angove, Will 1632)?
Looks like we need Ian to dig out those recollections of property connections to firm up these possibilities.

[Cornish Terrier]

My friends, I have had one helluva frustrating time recently with my Internet connection.

Tonight has been extremely so as I have had connection for a few minutes and then nothing - but I have perservered enough to get a few messages through.

I will need to look at this after things have stabilised as it is now approaching 0600 hrs and I am determined to eat something while I watch an early John Wayne Movie and then I am going to bed. (I need to be at work in just over 10 hours )

And, as I write this note, the connection has dropped out again.

If this gets posted you will know I have checked and made an effort to 'sneak through the window'.

Ian

[tonymitch]

Hello everyone,

Been off line for a time due to a malfunction in my computer...it broke!! Thanks Ian for the reminder that Mitchell can be spelled various ways. I have even found Mychell, I think it was in Sennen.

Don't know if Ian is back on line again, but if he is I have a question. How can I validate that James (b 1712) was the father of James (b 1744)? Is it just an educated guess or are there other indicators? I have a similar problem tracing my mother's side. Her father was a William Davies and in the 1901 census he gave his brthplace as 'Wales'. Thanks a bundle grandad...!! However I did establish from his marriage cert. that his father was Benjamin. Great...that narrows the field from 100,000/1 to 5000/1. I might have found his family in Aberdare, but can't be sure. The birthdates measure up, but have I got the correct Wiliam Davies or is it the one from Pembroke...same father's name...same date of birth...oh hell, I give up.

Lesley...for info as you are researching Wallis, I have a Humphrey Wallis 20 Farmer living with William Mitchell 14 Manservant in Boscarne (1841 census) and also mention in 1832 of a James Mitchell and a John Wallish being indentured on the part of Rev Hobson to lease a plot of land for a chapel in Higher Boscarne. This is I think the Weslean Chapel at Crows-an Wra. You can find reference in West Penwith Resources (Chapels)

Tony M

[tonymitch]

Lesley,

Sorry, I seem to have repeated myself...I have already told you about the John Wallish connection etc. Put it down to my age and a 'senior moment'

Tony M