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Semmans
Oct 1, 2007 18:16:59 GMT -5
Post by cornishmaid on Oct 1, 2007 18:16:59 GMT -5
Think I was on the wrong track with Osborne being Mary's grandmother's maiden name. From her wedding to John Semmens, her father was listed as Hugh Eva. From her baptism father was listed as Hugh Eva, mother as Mary. In the 1841 Census, living at Lower Green, Helston borough: EVA Hugh M 50 Mason Cornwall EVA Ann F 50 Cornwall EVA Charles M 20 Cornwall EVA Thomas M 15 Cornwall I found a marriage of Hugh Eva to Ann Anstis on 6 June 1824 at Helston, by licence, witnesses: Philip Eva, Matilda Hawthorn. BUT Hugh was a WIDOWER! I think (through deduction) that his previous marriage was to Mary Webb on 15 September 1814 in Breage. So still no clue where the name Osborne came in.
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Semmans
Oct 2, 2007 13:51:42 GMT -5
Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 2, 2007 13:51:42 GMT -5
Cornishmaid (m'darlin) - I do believe you have found the right girl. ;D Yes - this 'could' be a clue and we should keep it in mind for future reference. But I would suggest firstly that Amelia's father was, indeed, an Osborne but was never 'brought to book'. If we could get a look at the baptismal record we 'might' find some further clues. It was often recorded in the PRs when an illegitimate child was baptised - 'reputed father ......' We cannot rely on this, though, as it was not always the case where the father was named - for many reasons. Possible reasons might include:- The father was from a well-to-do family and scandal had to be avoided - even if a payment may have been made. The girl may not have known who the father was. The father may even have died prior to the birth. And there may be many more reasons. But I seem to recall that, in some Parishes (dependant upon the Vicar) a child might not be baptised unless the 'reputed father' was named. I certainly think progress is being made. Will try and look at this again tomorrow.
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Post by georgec on Oct 3, 2007 5:47:14 GMT -5
Hi Thanks to every one for the help with this one. So unless any one can find or add more I think that what we have is a mother re Mary EVA with a passable illegitimate daughter Amelia OSBORNE b March 1839 in the Helston area. Amelia at age 2 in 1841 was with the TRUDGEN family at Hea Moor Madron. At age 3 her mother Mary EVA married John SEMMENS at Gulval in 1842. One thing to note at the wedding of Mary EVA and John SEMMENS is that a Henry TRUDGEN was one of the witnesses, Marys father the other witness. So it looks passable that the Trudgen family play a part in this mystery. Would a birth Certificate in 1841 have the fathers name on it, that is if they put a fathers name on it.
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Semmans
Oct 3, 2007 10:05:03 GMT -5
Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 3, 2007 10:05:03 GMT -5
A Birth Certificate of that time (and even later) 'may or may not' contain the name of 'a' father. It would really depend on a number of considerations which include those in my previous post. I actually have a copy of a Birth Certificate wich I thought, at the time, solved a problem for me. Although the problem was eventually solved it turned out that the parents named on the Certificate were not the parents of the child at all. The solution - the child was the illegitimate child of the DAUGHTER of those named on the Birth Certificate. I have also seen Birth Certificates where the father's name has been recorded incorrectly. A little scenario for what 'may have' happened:- John is the son of William. John has married Mary. John and Mary produce a child. It is John's duty to Register the birth of the child so he attends to perform his legal duty. Registrar: Name of child? John: Amelia Registrar: Name of child's mother? John: Mary Registrar: Father's name? John: William This is, obviously, all plays on words but it is one answer I have thought may be a possible reason for the errors I have found on some Certificates. In the above scenario it is obvious that John has given the name of his own father and that is what would appear on the Birth Certificate for Amelia. All I can say George is that it will be judgemental thing to actually purchase the certificate and you may find out that the father was not recorded. ** Another idea ** This Registration took place in the Helston R.D. so there may be another, and cheaper, way to do things. Will close this note whilst I check a couple of things and then will post some ideas in the following.
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Semmans
Oct 3, 2007 10:19:03 GMT -5
Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 3, 2007 10:19:03 GMT -5
George - some ideas. As you are in Penzance you are not a long way from Helston which, I think, is where the Registrar's Office for that District might be located. If you attend that Office you 'may' be able to sight the record but, if not, it would be cheaper to get it there than it would via St Catherine's House. When in Cornwall in 1994 I visited the Registrar's Office in Penzance. I asked for the entries I was interested in and the books were located whereafter the Certificates were written out in front of me. Next option - maybe you could enlist the help of someone who may visit the CRO or the other facilities in Redruth from time to time and perhaps they may be able to check the Baptismal Registers for you. Perhaps 'Cornishmaid' might have some suggestions here. The third option would be to visit the CRO in Truro where all the original Parish Registers should be held. There is one thing I cannot guarantee. Whether there would be any different information on the Birth Certificate as to what might be found in the Parish Register. But I would certainly suggest trying to get the PR information before purchasing a Birth Certificate.
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Semmans
Oct 4, 2007 18:53:23 GMT -5
Post by cornishmaid on Oct 4, 2007 18:53:23 GMT -5
I agree with everything above. There has, however, been a slight change to record keeping in Cornwall. The service has now been centralised, and all copy birth, marriage and death certificates have to be ordered from Truro. Past records are no longer kept at the district registry offices . Although this may seem a good thing, given that one may not know where in Cornwall an event took place... it may take longer (for the time being anyway) to receive a copy certificate whilst the records are being sorted. I too used to find the staff at Penzance registry office extremely helpful, and nothing was ever too much trouble. Back to the subject of Amelia... I looked in Redruth for her baptism in the the districts around Helston, but haven't been able to find anything. The CRO would definitely be the next place to search. Amelia may have been born in Helston, but does this mean she would have been baptised there . I'll keep looking
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Post by georgec on Oct 5, 2007 4:44:20 GMT -5
Hi Thank you all for the input on this one. I will keep plugging away at it and let you know what I come up with. The answer is out there captain ;D George
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Semmans
Oct 5, 2007 10:58:25 GMT -5
Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 5, 2007 10:58:25 GMT -5
It is the pleasure of 'your humble servants' to be of help. ;D Keep looking and keep us informed George and I will certainly do my best to help out. Another thing to consider with Amelia Osborne Eva Given that (it would appear) she was illegitimate it is possible her mother was 'sent away' for the birth. (e.g. to relatives elsewhere). It may be possible that the child (Amelia) was also baptised 'away from home'. Do we know if Amelia married. That may be another way to find out some more about her. I will do some checking and see if I can find anything - but no promises.
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Semmans
Oct 5, 2007 11:37:02 GMT -5
Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 5, 2007 11:37:02 GMT -5
Something more to help confuse the issue. PAUL MARRIAGES 12 Oct 1862 by Banns William Thomas Spargo 21 Stone Mason of Sheffield (Father: William Spargo, Stone Mason) Amelia Semmens 24 of Trungle [Mark] (Father: John Semmens, Labourer) Witnesses: Richard Drew, Naomi Spargo And this might confuse things some more. I am sure the following is the same woman as above but there is something of note:- At the time of marriage this Amelia states her age (in 1862) as 24 which puts her birth about 1838/9. 1871 Census - Penzance 8 Green Street Ann Osborne, head, wid., 50, charwoman, Penzance John do., son, unm, 26, ship carpenter, Penzance Annie do., daur., unm, 21, dressmaker, Penzance 9 Green Street AMELIA SPARGO, head, mar., 29, stone mason's wife, HELSTONEVA J do., daur, unm, 6, scholar, Penzance Albert J do., son, unm, 4, scholar, Penzance Laura E do., daur, 3, scholar, Penzance William J do., son, 9, Scholar, Paul Charles H do., son, 7 mths, Paul Paul Baptisms 1863 5 Apr William John c/o William (Stone Cutter) & Amelia Spargo of Trungle A very quick search failed to locate Amelia in the 1881 Census. Cannot be sure we have the right person and I have only tried a couple of 'off-the-cuff' searches and there are some interesting little items involved. Would like to do more tonight but a few other things to look at before I get some sustenance and got to bed. But I think there might be enough here to keep you amused for a while. ;D
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Semmans
Oct 5, 2007 11:51:04 GMT -5
Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 5, 2007 11:51:04 GMT -5
BTW - I believe the very first Agatha Christie book I ever read was:-
"CAT AMONG THE PIGEONS" ;D
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Semmans
Oct 5, 2007 12:20:52 GMT -5
Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 5, 2007 12:20:52 GMT -5
Another BTW William Thomas Spargo 'of SHEFFIELD'. I have just been reminded that this may not be the well known Sheffield of Yorkshire. There is a little village called 'Sheffield' not far from Paul as you head towards Land's End. I should have remembered that because I have been through the place a few times during my visits to Cornwall. So a look at the Spargo family might also (possibly) be helpful in the search for Amelia. Provided I have located the right girl.
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Semmans
Oct 5, 2007 12:44:20 GMT -5
Post by cornishmaid on Oct 5, 2007 12:44:20 GMT -5
I think you are on the right track with the Spargo family. Wrote some notes, but they're not to hand at the moment and have to go out . Hopefully get back to this later ;D
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Semmans
Oct 5, 2007 13:23:58 GMT -5
Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 5, 2007 13:23:58 GMT -5
That's ok - I am about to finish up for the night and do the 'eat, watch, go to bed' thing so that I can be at least semi-fit for work in about 13-1/2 hours time. Saturday night at the Pub is not usually like 'Saturday Night At The Movies' - even though we have a few 'Drifters' in from time to time. ;D Will try and catch up on things after work.
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Post by georgec on Oct 8, 2007 3:39:29 GMT -5
Hi Have been away for a couple of days and then come back to all this info. Thank you both. Looking back on my records : Amelia as b1831/2 She was age 2 when here mother Mary married John SEMMENS In the 1851 census she was 12 years old In the 1861 census for Paul Church Town she was unmarried and age 22 a house servant for a OSBORN family. So now in 1862 she is to marry a William Thomas SPARGO on the 12 Oct 1862 her age is 24. In the 1871 census for Penzance you have found her Amelia SPARGO age 29 head of house. So it looks like you have found the right person. When we started of this we looked in Crowan the went to Gulval, Sancreed,Madron and then Paul. Just goes to show that family's did move about abit. I am still trying to sort out the father of Amelia I have got in touch with the Crowan on line parish clark and waiting for her to get back to me. Also I have not head of the place called Trungle. I know that Sheffield is about 3 miles out side Newlyn on the back road to Lands End. So I will try to hunt out this place and see what I can find out. Once more thanks to you both for all the help with this one.
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Post by londoner on Oct 8, 2007 9:27:01 GMT -5
Trungle: OS grid ref 459272, just outside Paul, a little north of Sheffield
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