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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 21, 2007 12:46:15 GMT -5
Agreed, and good work in finding this bit of information. Be nice to have some further corroborative evidence but I think you are on the right track here. To save me crawling through a lot of information again right now I have one question. If Phillis Chapple was enumerated at the home of John Bennatts in 1841 and Peter Chapple died at the 'workhouse' in 1847 I need to ask where Peter Chapple was in 1841. I probably have the data here but have lots going on so hope you can simplify it for me. Other than that, it looks likely that your scenario may be correct.
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Post by trencrom on Sept 23, 2007 5:33:41 GMT -5
My notes are not with me tonight but as I recall it there was a Peter Chapel, on his own and aged "75" at Lower Ninnes in Madron in the 1841 census, who I am thinking is probably him.
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Post by trencrom on Sept 23, 2007 5:53:09 GMT -5
What I have not also worked out yet is why Phillis was at Wicka in Zennor when she died in 1843. The families listed at Wicka in 1841 (Osborne, Richards, Quick) do not seem to be connected with either her, or her husband. Puzzling.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 23, 2007 11:17:07 GMT -5
Although some of the 'dates' seem to be a little out. I currently show (in my database) some information of possible interest. We are talking about Phillis Ellis who married (first) Thomas Semens at Madron in 1786 and then (second) Peter Chapple at St Ives in 1795. Let me know what you think of the following:- Phillis d/o Thomas ELLIS bp. 30th August 1767 at Ludgvan (IGI) Thomas ELLIS m. 19th February 1765 at Ludgvan to PHILLIS RICHARDSJust 'might' be a few clues here.
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Post by trencrom on Sept 23, 2007 22:43:38 GMT -5
And that's who I think it is too. It's just that when you mentioned a Phillis born to a Richard Ellis in Sancreed in or around the same year I thought I needed to explore that as a possibility and weigh it up against the other.
Pros for Sancreed: Apparemt connection to Tregavara, where land was held by father-in-law of potential nephew. Name "Grace" being in both Richard Ellis-Jane Rodda and Thomas Semmens-Phillis Ellis families "Richard Ellis" child of Phiillis and Peter named after her potential father
Pros for Ludgvan: Parish where Phillis later marries Thomas Semmens "Richard Ellis" child of Phiillis and Peter named after her potential brother "Phillis Richards" child of Phiillis and Peter named after her potential mother
Since I cannot find a satisfactory explanation of a child to Peter and Phillis named "Phillis Richards" if Phillis senior is the daughter of Richard Ellis, rather than of Thomas Ellis, I think it morely likely that Peter's wife has to be the daughter of the latter.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 24, 2007 8:54:05 GMT -5
Remember also that Phillis RICHARDS was 'of St Buryan' when she married Thomas Ellis in 1765.
Also that Zennor seemed to have some connection with St Buryan and Sancreed over the years as I have seen from a few documents.
Though I would take a look at 1841 also:-
Market Jew Street, Borough of Penzance, Parish of Madron
John Bennatts, 55, ag lab Grace Bennatt, 50 (could be 30 but looks like 50 when magnified) Phillis Chapple, 75 Eliza Semmens, 25, basket maker
Lower Ninnes, Parish of Madron
William Pascoe, 29, farmer Mary Pascoe, 29, Cyphran do., 6 Grace do., 1 Elizabeth Pearce, 10 Peter Chappell, 75, Inde Ann Mann, 55
Will check a couple of more things and then post another note with any new findings.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 24, 2007 10:13:30 GMT -5
Gulval Marriages 4 Feb 1821 by Banns John Bennatts Grace Symons [mark] Witnesses: R. Bennatts, John Pellew From this it would appear that Phillis Chapple was staying with her daughter from the marriage to Thomas SEMENS on the night of the Census. As for Peter Chapple in 1841 - it would be handy to find out just who were the people he was enumerated with. At Wicka in 1841 there were two households of Richards which seems to be the only real clue for Phillis. However, I find it difficult to understand why should have been 'of Wicka Round' when she died in 1843 given that, it seems, her husband was still living. Could it be that, by this time, Peter Chapple was already in the Union Workhouse. I do not know a lot about the 'Union Workhouse' but - is it possible that Peter was in such a state of health that he could not be looked after at home and was there for that reason. If this were the case then it is 'possible' that Phillis was then living with relatives, albeit probably nephews. But the question then is - why with them and not with her own children and their families. This is most peculiar but I have to leave it for now as I have temporarily run out of ideas. Will try to take another look through all of this in the coming days.
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Post by trencrom on Sept 24, 2007 22:19:16 GMT -5
Exactly - these are the questions I am asking myself, too. I also read Grace's age in the '41 as "50".
Phillis may have just been visiting family on census night rather than living with them, but as you say her appearance at Wicka is puzzling. I know that a John Chapel, who is probably her son, was in Gulval in the '41 and in Zennor in the '51, but I did not record in my notes exactly where in Zennor he then was. Perhaps he was there by 1843?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 25, 2007 12:34:23 GMT -5
The John CHAPPLE at Zennor in 1851 was born at St Ives about 1797/8 and was at Higher Kerrow. Given Peter and Phillis were married at St Ives it is possible he was born there but then baptised at Madron. This John was with his wife Dinah (50) born Zennor, sons William (10), James (8) and grandaughter Mary Harry (1) who were all born Gulval. The 1841 Census entry is interesting given the order the names appear:- 1841 Census, Gear, Gulval John Chappel, 40, farmer Dinna do., 40 John do., 4 William do., 2 James do., 1 mth William Shetford, 15, ag lab Elizabeth Chapple, 10 Phillis do., 8 Now I have printed this I can the pattern - apart from his wife, all others in the household are named in order of birth except for the fact that all 'males' were named first and then the 'females' of the family. The fact that one daughter is named Phillis is a possible pointer to the fact that this is, indeed, the son of Peter and Phillis. We need to find the marriage of John Chapple to Dinah which is one document that might be of real help. It did not, according to my records, occur at Gulval. I do not have the required information for Zennor or Madron. But maybe this following from IGI might be of use:- John Chapple m. Dinah QUICK 14th July 1828 at Zennor And, of course (now I check on information you previously supplied) John was previously married to Jane Thomas at Zennor in 1823. It would seem the following burials from Zennor might come into play:- 12 May 1823 Jane Chaple of Treveal aged 25 13 Jan 1843 Phillis Chaple of Wicka Round aged 77 27 Nov 1881 Dianna Chappel of Bosporthenis aged 80 This all now looks reasonable although we have not determined conclusively why Peter and Phillis might have been separated by 1843. Except for the possibility mentioned yesterday that Peter may have 'had to be' interned in the Workhouse for health or other reasons. If all this proves to be correct - I guess the next step would be to identify Jane Thomas. And good luck to us all on that one. Hope this is of some help and I will try to get back to it again tomorrow.
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Post by trencrom on Sept 25, 2007 22:29:10 GMT -5
Cornish terrier, thanks for that.
Peter and Phillis married at St Ives in 1795, and had a daughter Phyllis born at St. Ives in 1796. No further christenings appear to the parents thereafter at St Ives, but they then start in Madron (with nothing prior to that date there) with John in 1798 as you say.
There is no doubt that there was a family connection with Zennor, although it seems to be more with the generation of Peter and Phillis' children instead.
Jane Thomas died at Treveale in Zennor in 1823, per Zennor burials. John Chapple of Gulval married to Dinah Quick of Zennor parish in 1828.
John Curnow and his wife Elizabeth married in Gulval in 1825, and the Gulval parish registers show that John was from Towednack, hence Elizabeth presumably was a resident at Gulval.
Their two older children Elizabeth Chapel Curnow and John Curnow were born in Zennor parish in 1826 and 1827 respectively. The Zennor parish registers give the locality in Zennor as Treveale. A James Chapple and his wife Mary appear in the Zennor parish registers having children, also at Treveale, at the same time as John and Elizabeth -- i.e. the late 1820's. James moved to Towednack in the 1830's, as did John and Elizabeth. In the 1851 census of Towednack, his age was given as 46 years and his birthplace as Madron, details which match up with Peter's son of the same name.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 26, 2007 15:31:48 GMT -5
James Chapple's last child born at Zennor seems to have been Johanna in 1838. The next recorded child I have (from Census records) is Elizabeth THOMAS Chapple born at TOWEDNACK c. 1840. This gets more and more interesting and convoluted. Shall work on it some more, hopefully, in the next couple of days.
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Post by georgec on Oct 7, 2008 7:45:41 GMT -5
Hi to you all.
I have a up date to the CHAPPLE family history.
re: *Peter CHAPPEL who married Phillis Simmons nee ELLIS in 1795
His father was:
John CHAPPLE bap 20 Feb 1714 who married Chestone ROBERTS in 1739.
They had 7 children:
John bap 21 March 1741 St Just
Jonathan bap 19 Nov 1743 m Sarah EDDY 2 Fed 1771 St Just
Isaac bap 15 April 1745 St Just
*Peter bap 19 Jan 1747 St Just
Ann b 1748 d1749 St Just
William b 3 Dec 1750
Thomas bap 2 Dec 1753 St Just.
I hope this is a help to any one will post more when l find it.
George
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 8, 2008 3:41:56 GMT -5
Thanks for the update George and I will try and review it all in the coming days. Have to start moving again so things might be a bit slow bit I will get to it. CT
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Post by trencrom on Oct 11, 2008 0:46:57 GMT -5
Hi to you all. I have a up date to the CHAPPLE family history. re: *Peter CHAPPEL who married Phillis Simmons nee ELLIS in 1795 His father was: John CHAPPLE bap 20 Feb 1714 who married Chestone ROBERTS in 1739. They had 7 children: John bap 21 March 1741 St Just Jonathan bap 19 Nov 1743 m Sarah EDDY 2 Fed 1771 St Just Isaac bap 15 April 1745 St Just *Peter bap 19 Jan 1747 St Just Ann b 1748 d1749 St Just William b 3 Dec 1750 Thomas bap 2 Dec 1753 St Just. I hope this is a help to any one will post more when l find it. George Hello again George, Peter who was the son of John Chapel and christened in 1746/7 unfortunately was not the same person as the Peter who married Phillis. Peter the son of John was buried in 1748. Phillis' husband died in 1847 aged 85, and hence was born about 1762. I have done a detailed study of the West Penwith Chapples but have not found any christening for him around this time. Although I do not recall noticing any obvious gaps in the St Just registers for the period in question, what I did discover was that there are a number of other Chapples for which christening entries are also missing around this time. Trencrom -
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Post by trencrom on Oct 11, 2008 0:51:34 GMT -5
George, I should also add that Isaac is probably not a son of John and Cheston, but rather of John and Jane who were also having children at St Just at the same time. I think the others you named are correct. There was also a daughter Mary (to John and Cheston) born in 1756.
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