I have been chasing the ancestry of a Jane Trembath who married a Martin Edwards at Morvah in 1751. Martin appears to have been the Martin Edwards, christened at St Just in Penwith in 1716. A Trembath researcher with whom I corresponded had Jane as Jane christened in 1735 or 1736 at Morvah, from memory to a William Trembath and Grace Jago. I have not been able to confirm theat this is the same Jane and am a little uneasy given the differentce in ages between the parties. However I have been unable to find another candidate with a Trembath maiden name in that area and general time frame . A look at transcipts of the Morvah PRs reveals that a Jane Holla married a Martin Trenbath in 1741 and had some children to him, of which the last is recorded as having been born after the death of its father in about 1746. I am therefore wondering if the woman who married Martin Edwards 5 years later was actually this Jane Trembath, nee Holla? Is anyone able to confirm or to correct this?
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 25, 2007 12:11:52 GMT -5
By Gee! - yet another 'hairy' question to look at.
Let me see if I can add anything that might help.
I tried working through the Morvah Registers a few years ago but there were, then, some difficulties given that St Just and Madron, in particular, came largely into play and I did not have ready access to those records.
There was a Jane Trembath bp. at Morvah 19th October 1735 as daughter of William Trembath.
She would have been only 15 (maximum) if she were baptised in the year she was born. There is no indication in the Morvah records to suggest that Jane was baptised late so I would have to suggest that this is not the girl involved.
Mind you - I tentatively (about 7 years ago) placed this Jane as the daughter of William and Margery Trembath who were married at Madron in 1722. I only, currently, have three children for William and Margery - Joan bp. 1728, Jane bp. 1735, and William bp. 1742 with these events all occurring in Morvah. There are likely to be other children baptised at Madron or St Just but I have not had the opportunity to check that situation out just yet.
Another point - I (unless I have missed it in my information) do not have a record of a marriage between a William TREMBATH and a Grace JAGO.
Let's return to the start of your query:-
Martin Edwards 'may' have been baptised at St Just in 1716 but we are certainly looking at a rather prolific surname here. If I have identified the right man then he was buried at Morvah May 30th, 1789 at the age of 77. This would place his birth at about 1711/12 should his age be accurate.
Right now I would be inclined to go with your last idea about the widowed Jane Trembath (nee Holla). She was married to MADDERN Trembath in 1741 and had three children that I am aware of with the last, as you mention, being baptised about seven months after the burial of his father.
Much work to be done here but I am certainly more comfortable with this last bit.
Unfortunately, if it is correct, Jane was not recorded as a 'widow' in the Madron Parish Register in 1751.
I brought my notes with me on a CD today so I won't have to work from memory yet again.
Yes cornishnterrier, the Jane I was thinking of was the one christened in 1735 to William and Margery Trembath, and it was this William who was the son, so I have been told, of another William who married Grace Jago.
The Martin who died in 1789 is also the one I had in mind. Agreed, his age at death if accurate suggests a birth year previous to what I said, but the only one for a Martin that I could find was to Thomas at St Just in 1715.
Martin and Jane had the following children: Jane, christened 3/10/1751 at Morvah, Edward, chr. 1/4/1753 ditto, see below, Ann, chr. 26/12/1755 ditto, Martin, chr. 2/4/1758 ditto, marr. Elizabeth Corin 23-5/11/1786 at St. Just, Mary, chr. 3/2/1760 at Morvah, Christian, chr. 5/2/1764 ditto.
The names "Martin" and "Edward" also appear among the names of Thomas' children but the others do not. I am therefore wondering if these are cerived from Jane's family, whoever she was. I have not found a christening for a Jane Holla as yet though.
cornish terrier, what data I have on this family came from others who unfortunately did not tell me how they arrived at their conclusions. I am not therefore in a position to say that your conflicting information is incorrect. The fact that you have something different --and at first glance I do not see any obvious reason why William the husband of Margery could not have been the William who was the son of Richard and Honour as you suggest -- to me suggests also that the question of this family's pedigree may need to be reexamined.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 28, 2007 14:07:35 GMT -5
It is pleasing to read your comments and see that we both agree.
It would be nice to turn up the Grace JAGO marriage and see where it leads us but, for the moment, it remains on the 'Hunt List'.
Using IGI as a guide I can find only one marriage for a Grace JAGO and that was at St Just in Penwith in 1691.
IGI shows this as being about December of 1691 and also records the husband as WILLIAM TREMBATH!
I have a 'huge' query with this information.
I have copies of the Phillimore & Taylor Marriage transcript for St Just in Penwith and it appears that, at the time the Transcript was made, the name of the Groom and the actual date of the marriage were totally illegible. (It was after October and before January - is the best that can be offered).
The IGI record also states that Grace died 25th March 1708 at St Just in Penwith.
When I clicked on 'William Trembath' in this particular IGI record it showed something more of interest.
William TREMBATH was supposedly 'born' at MORVAH 29th January 1663!
I have a Transcript of the Morvah Parish Register which shows two things:-
The date of baptism was actually 29th January 1664 William was son of Richard TREMBATH
I believe this to be the Richard Trembath who married Jone HARRY at Morvah 4th January 1658
I currently show no marriage for this William TREMBATH so it is 'possible' that he did, indeed, marry Grace Jago.
A check of the Cornwall Online Parish Register site for St Just confirms that the 1691 marriage entry was basically unreadable. The person who transcribed the register states that much of it was taken from Phillimore & Taylor with 'reference to the Original PR'.
It would seem that there may be a bit of 'guesswork' going on here regarding the information supplied via IGI but it is possible that there is something available to substantiate that entry that I have not found.
Whichever way this pans out it is beginning to look like it may eventually come back to Richard TREMBATH and Jone (nee HARRY) in any case.
I will 'throw the ball' back in your direction for some comment for now.
Cornish terrier, Could the marriage date have come from the St Just BTs perhaps?
I am not really clear how the IGI deals with events that occur from January 1 to March 24 for the years prceding 1752. Does it show the year as stated in the register, or correct it to what it would be in our modern calendar? I would have assumed the latter, but looking at this example, maybe not.
That is why I would rather see such dates rendered as "29 January 1663/4" (for example) so thatthere is no confusion as to the precise year involved.
You mention that Grace died in 1708. The administration papers for a Grace Trembath of St Just in that year show that Richard Trembath of Morvah, yeoman, Stephen Ustick, James Nillett and Noah Edwards were guardians and kinsmen of Jane, William and Elizabeth, the children of the deceased.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 2, 2007 12:01:08 GMT -5
Hi Trencrom, Yes, it is 'possible' that the date may have come from St Just BT's but I cannot confirm that possibility as I am not sure just what BT's for that Parish have survived.
And, whilst BT's are a useful source (particularly when PR's have not survived) there can still be problems.
BT's (I am pretty sure) were a periodical requisite of the Bishop and so were most probably compiled 'periodically'.
This means that a door for error has been opened as an inherent part of the recording process.
The original PR entries may not necessarily have been written 'immediately' and may have been left as the 'duties of the clerk' which means there are times when even these may not be completely accurate.
From documents I have seen I am sure that the BT was not written alongside the PR entry but would have been 'copied' at a date sometime before it was required.
Therefore, there is the obvious possibility of transcription errors we see even today in more modern documents.
I have an example (seen and have copies of) where I thought I had found the burial of a Francis Trewheela at Ludgvan in 1743. The PR showed one thing and the BT showed another - turned it it was the daughter (Elizabeth) of Francis who was buried.
Have since found out that Francis, in 1763, was transported to America for 7 years for a 'misdemeanor'.
IGI and how they deal with things is a touchy subject with me.
I do not wish to malign the Organisation itself as they have been doing wonderful work in providing all this information for us through some very long and arduous work.
I have, many years ago, spoken with someone about my main concern and was told it was 'being addressed' basically.
That concern was exactly that mentioned in your note regarding the 'copying' of dates prior to the Julian/Gregorian Calendar change.
My understanding has been that the information we have seen since its inception is the work of Church Members who supply their transcribed work for input to the 'database'.
In other words - 'I' might be a member of the LDS and visit the Cornwall Record Office (e.g.) and copy entries of interest to myself from a number of PR's. Many of those entires might fall into the 1st January-24th March period prior to the change of Calendar.
With these being the last three months of the year in the Julian Calendar and now becoming the first three months in the Gregorian Calendar 'I' decide to make things 'normal?' by changing the year upwards by one for those three months.
This has created enormous problems and I have seen it compounded by the way Genealogical Programs handle these types of dates.
A date in 1741 could, as information is passed on via programs, suddenly become 1748 for example.
My ABSOLUTE preference is that all data recorded from an original document (such as PR's and BT's) should be recorded 'as written' with the dates intact - regardless of the change of Calendar.
Another point you make about recording dates as (e.g.) 1722/23 can be part of this problem because you need to be sure that the earlier date is definately from the original source. This is part of the 'compounding' point I was trying to make above which I do hope makes some sense.
The other problem with many IGI recorded dates is that some are certainly recorded in 'original format' whilst, it seems, the majority are already 'converted'.
St Ives is a good example of this where, in IGI, there are at least two Batch numbers dealing with the period in question. I have noticed on more than one occasion that the baptism for the exact same person is recorded differently under each Batch Number film.
The very best way around this is a comparison with the Original PR.
On a final note for this - IGI Deaths have been becoming available for a few years now.
But here is the next problem - when they say Death, is it Burial?
In most cases the date you find will be a Burial date but I have seen a few cases where it is actually the Death date.
If you log into 'familysearch.org' and navigate your way to the 'IGI search' you will find that 'death/burial' is among the options.