ELLIS family in 16th Century

[donne]

This topic was raised on the Look Up Offers board and I've introduced it here as a new topic appropriate to Camborne.

I'm interested in the family of Christian ELLIS who married Paskow DUN in 1581. Unfortunately, the early baptism records for Camborne are incomplete but it's possible to speculate on the family using the marriage and burial records in addtion to baptism records. For this, I'm indebted to the online resource of transcribed BMD records provided by Sally Cann, the Camborne OPC.

This is my attempt at reconstructing the family and I'd be grateful for any comments on this flight of fancy, or any suggestions for further evidence.

I think that Christian ELLIS was the dau of William ELLIS and Richawe married 6 May 1557 ("Willm ELLIS the yonge and Richawe"), and was the second dau of that name, the first having been buried on 28 May 1558 ("Cristen ELLIS, dau of Willm"). She had siblings Thomas ELLIS, traced from a marriage to Christian ANGOVE in Apr 1587 and Agnes ELLIS, married James SKEWIS 21 Apr 1589.

From the reference in the marrage record to Willm ELLIS 'the yonge', I infer a father, William ELLIS, also living at that time, and I believe that this father was married to Johan, and had at least one child in addition to William. This was Elliyzabeth ELLIS who married John BRAYE 12 Jun 1546.

There are two William ELLIS burials, on 26 Apr 1571 and 31 May 1589 which I assume to be father and son respectively assuming they died in the natural order.

Further evidence of the existence of William ELLIS father is the record in the 1545 subsidy roll (thank you Mark T!) which records a person of that name paying £2. This is more likely to refer to the father since the roll dates to 12 years before the marriage of the supposed son William.

Well, that's my theory. What do others think?

[white]

Reply to Roger Donne.
I think that you have summed up the Ellis line very well and I agree with what you say allowing for the scant evidence available.
Again, very grateful for your help and the will transcripts, Roy

[Cornish Terrier]

I will throw in one comment here for consideration but, to help new people to the site, will use more current language.

The mention of 'William Ellis the younger' does not necessarily mean that he was actually the son of another William Ellis.

There are a couple of other possibilities to be considered and I have encountered these before.

1. This William 'may' simply have been the younger person of the same name in the Parish. (In which case his father was not William)

2. There 'may' have been two sons named William in the family (see the Curnow family of the 1600's).

3. He was, indeed, the son of William Ellis.

It is a difficult scenario but any of the above could be possible.

Ian

[trencrom]

i have responded to this on the other thread but basically I agree with Ian on this.
A question for posters generally:
How common name is Richowe? I haver to confess I have never seen it hitherto.
The rarer it is, the stronger the case for William junior and his wife being the parents of Christian the wife of Paskow Donne.

I would also be curious to know how many of us here descend from the Ellis-Donne marriage. Quite a few it would seem

[donne]

Totally agree on the need to be sceptical. I wasn't claiming any sort of proof, but sometimes a working hypthesis is a useful framework against which to test other pieces of info as they arise.

One thing to bear in mind is that Camborne of this date was not the large industrial town it later became but a small village with a relatively small population. Looking at the BMD records, it would seem that about a dozen deaths were occuring each year and a similar number of baptisms.

Looking into the records again, another candidate is for the ELLIS line is James ELLIS who married "Nora d/o of John SYMON" 19 Jan 1538/39. However, there seems to be no subsequent reference to this James. (Incidentally, on the question of Richaw as a girl's given name, I just noticed just above that "Richaw d/o Thomas CARVEITH" married "Hairi CALLAN" 21 Nov 1538.)

One other name source I have is a copy of David Thomas's article from Cornish Studies 6 (1978) "The Wardens of Camborne Parish Church etc", and I note that a William ELLIS was one of the Wardens of the Communion in 1562. By the way, in his preamble to the list, David Thomas says "In times when social mobility was on a smaller scale than at present, and with an essentially parochial outlook, the occurrence of a surname in one parish (with a relatively small population) is an almost certain indication of blood relationship". Discuss!!

[Cornish Terrier]

I have always had the opinion that 'Richawe' is very likely to be the name we now know as 'Rachel'.

However - having just consulted 'Names for the Cornsh - 300 Cornish Christian Names' I can offer the following:-

RICHOW - A fairly common pre-17th Century name for Cornish girls. The name does not seem to occur in standard reference books; it is perhaps a feminine pet-form of RICHARD, with a Cornish -OW suffix used in a diminutive capacity.

Apart from that I am no real help at this point.

As for David Thomas (as mentioned by Trencrom) - I am thinking that he is probably the same man who was working at the CRO when I was there in 1994.

I believe David was from Camborne and was definitely into 'bell-ringing'.

David's knowledge of old records was excellent, as was his reading of old hand-writing which he demonstrated to me when I had trouble deciphering names in the Zennor BT's.

Not sure where David is now but perhaps Nancy Tonkin could help if you think it might be worth contacting David.

Need help here just let me know and I will see what I can do.

[myghaelangof]

Re David Thomas
I believe he is the county archivist, working out of Truro. I saw him in the records office in July, so guess if he's been there a few years he still aint left!

Re Richow - I've been coming across this name recently, finding ladies of this name in the 1500's. So, thank you for resolving my curiosity about it as well.

[Cornish Terrier]

Always glad to be of help.

But I had an idea that I was told David had left the CRO for other parts a couple of years ago.

It may be that he went away for a spell and then returned or .............. I have my information wrong.

Regardless - David is a good bloke and extremely good at what he does.

[trencrom]

donne said:

David Thomas says "In times when social mobility was on a smaller scale than at present, and with an essentially parochial outlook, the occurrence of a surname in one parish (with a relatively small population) is an almost certain indication of blood relationship". Discuss!!

I would qualify that somewhat, as depending also on how common a particular surname was in the general area, and on whether we are looking at just close blood relationships or more distant connections as well.

Surnames such as "Williams", "Richards" were sufficiently common so as to preclude any immediate assumption that two Richardses in the one parish had to be closely connected.
In Lelant we have two lines of Bennatses in the eigthteenth century which cannot be shown to be interlinked at present. Ditto Harrys in St Ives.
Ditto Thomases in Zennor.
Ditto Thomases in Ludgvan.
There were numerous Curnows in and around Towednack who were probably all related, but not necessarily closely.

On the other hand, it is quite possible, even likely, that less common surnames such as, say, Chellew all did originate from the one, in this case Ludgvan family.
Ditto Safeguards in St Ives.
Ditto Donithornes in Gulval.

[Cornish Terrier]

I agree with both David Thomas and with Trencrom - however it may largely depend on the particular time period with the application of comments from either David or Trencrom.

With names like Richards et al (as mentioned by Trencrom) things can be much more difficult than dealing with a name like, for instance, 'Trewhella' (var.).

I have had enough trouble with the Trewhella family who, by comparison, are a very, very small minority in comparison with Richards, Stevens, Quick, Curnow, Mi(t)chell etc. families.

Must leave this now before I get too involved as I have much to do over the next couple of days to ensure future input here.