Mitchell-Richards

[bazza]

OK, so this is the info from my welcome post and additional stuff that was asked for:

'I have a death certificate for Elizabeth Richards (née Mitchell) who originated from Zennor (though the cert says she was born in Devon!) whos parents were Samuel Mitchell & Elizabeth Laurie (who I cannot find). So I figured that the informant for the cert (her son-in-law) got her parents wrong, like her birth place. I am now thinking she was either the daughter of Samuel & Mary Trewhella (m. 1796, Towednack) or Samuel & Mary Phillips (m. 1804, Perranzabuloe). She married John Richards in 1827, Zennor, and I have the census returns for 1841 & '51. They, with their 9 daughters, immigrated to Australia in 1854.'
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Census Returns:
1841 - Church Village, Zennor, Cornwall
RICHARDS/John/M/38/Shoemaker/Cornwall
RICHARDS/Elizabeth/F/35/Cornwall
RICHARDS/Elizabeth/F/13/Cornwall
RICHARDS/Mary/F/11/Cornwall
RICHARDS/Jane/F/10/Cornwall
RICHARDS/Nancy/F/7/Cornwall
RICHARDS/Elizabeth/F/5/Cornwall
RICHARDS/Grace/F/3/Cornwall
RICHARDS/Louisa/F/2m/Cornwall

1851 - St. Andrew’s Street, St. Ives, Cornwall
RICHARDS/John/Head/M/M/46/Cordwainer/Cornwall - Maddron
RICHARDS/Elizabeth/Wife/M/F/45/Cornwall - Zennor
RICHARDS/Elizabeth/Dau/U/F/23/Cornwall - Lelant (c: 7 Oct 1827)
RICHARDS/Mary/Dau/U/F/21/Dress Maker/Cornwall - Lelant (ch. 22 Jan 1830)
RICHARDS/Jane/Dau/U/F/19/Cornwall - Lelant (c: 19 apr 1832)
RICHARDS/Nancy/Dau/U/F/16/Shoebinder/Cornwall - Zennor (c: 26 Oct 1834)
RICHARDS/Eliza/Dau/U/F/14/Cornwall - Zennor (c: 2 Oct 1836)
RICHARDS/Grace M./Dau/U/F/12/Scholar/Cornwall - Zennor (b: ~1838)
RICHARDS/Louisa/Dau/-/F/9/Scholar/Cornwall - Zennor (c: 27 Jun 1841)
RICHARDS/Rozina/Dau/-/F/7/Scholar/Cornwall - Zennor (c: 4 Mar 1844)
RICHARDS/Lavinia/Dau/-/F/1/Cornwall - St Ives (c: 7 Jun 1849)
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Now for questions asked in welcome thread:
There were no other entries in the Victoria BDMs with the same parents - very unfortunate.
I do not have witnesses for their 1827 marriage or any wills relating to the family.

I do not think that John & Elizabeth moved interstate, but remained in the Portland district of Victoria. I know their daughter Louisa died in Sydney, as I have her d/c and the only two others whom I have a death date for (not just a year) are Eliza (d/c, my line) and Grace M. (from Hamilton newspaper - which didn't give much family detail). I have a fair amount of information on their descendants so am fairly certain they remained in Vic.
John is a problem: I cannot find any record of his death (even bought the wrong certificate!) in Victoria, New South or South Aus, so am thinking that he either moved further afield or returned to England. As our online records for emigration are only freely available to the 1850s I cannot verify this line of thought. John is also proving difficult to trace his ancestry!!!

Elizabeth Richards (née Mitchell) death certificate:
No.:- 1524
DESCRIPTION:
When and where died:- 8th October 1889, Palmer Street, Borough of Portland, County of Normanby
Name and surname, Rank or Profession:- Elizabeth Richards, Widow
Sex and Age:- Female, 84 years
Cause of death; duration of last illness; Medical Attendant by whom certified; When he last saw deceased:- Gradual decay from Old Age; Bed-ridden for 3 weeks; Dr E.B. Brewer; 7th Oct 1889
Name and Surname of Father and Mother if known, with rank or profession:- Samuel Mitchell, Farmer, and Elizabeth Mitchell M.N. Laurie.
Signature, Description and Residence of Informant:- J. H. Jones, Son-in-law of deceased, Portland
<Registration & Burial details (if needed let me know)>
Where born and how long in Australian Colonies, stating which:- Devonshire, England, 36 years in Victoria
IF DECEASED WAS MARRIED:
Where, and at what age and to Whom:- Sunner, Cornwall, England, 22 years, John Richards
Issue, in order of birth, their Names and Ages:- Elizabeth - 62yrs, Mary - 60yrs, Jane - 58yrs, Nancy - 56yrs, Eliza - 54yrs, Grace - 50yrs, Louisa - 47yrs, Rosina - 45, John - dead, Lavinia - 39yrs.

John Hector Jones (informant) was the second husband of Rosina Lowe (née Richards), who were married in 1869. I assumed that the reference to 'Sunner' refered to Zennor, as that was where she was living and born.

Hope you can help and clear this up. All the children listed in the censuses are their entire issue (apart from John, ch 1846, who had to have died as a child before 1854 as he did not come to Australia)

Baz

P.S. The family departed England on May 21, 1854 aboard the 'Nestor' and arrived in Melbourne on Sep 16. They were assisted immigrants.

[Cornish Terrier]

Have been looking at a few things here to try and diffuse the confusion. (But I have discovered a 'wandering keyboard again)

Will try to battle through that.

Baz - in the Vic BDM I can find only two likely candidates for your John Richards.

One died 1870 age 67 (born Cornwall) s/o Samuel and Ann
Two died 1874 age 68 (born England) s/o John and Mary (Thomas)

I am guessing that it is one of the above for whom you bought a Death Certificate.

Do not feel lost here as I have had similar problems and some of those are not resolved.

My mother's great-grandfather is an almost perfect example.

Name - Singleton
Born - Ireland (apparently)
Married - New York (in 1849 apparently)

Died - ( apparently)

Wife re-married at Walhalla, Victoria in 1876.

My last record of John Singleton (prior to his demise) is of his sojourn at the Pleasant Creek (Stawell) Hospital in 1861.

I have found no death record for him in Victoria, New South Wales, South Australia, New Zealand ............. (Yep - even checked Tasmania)

When his wife remarried it was stated that she was widowed in July of 1861 but I am yet to find a record of John's death.

The only likely candidate I can find so far would have been baptised at Madron in 1802 as son of a John Richards.

Please send the further information from your certificates which might help me sort out the problem.

Via PM might be best for a start and I will see what I can find.

This is of interest to me because of the Trewhella Connection (which means you and I are very likely related

Cannot do more tonight but will attempt some more research on this one tomorrow.

[trencrom]

Baz,
Looks like your Elizabeth was born about 1805 according to the 1851 census data you supplied. Does that date agree with one of her prospective families?
As Zennor was adjacent to Towednack it is quite possible for a child born in the one parish to have been christened at the other parish --especially if the family was living in between the two parish churches.
I agree that "Sunner" is most probably Zennor.
You will find that you are probably related to almost anybody with Zennor ancestry -- it was one of those places where there was a lot of intermarriage between the local families. I have a number of Zennor families in my own ancestry and often have found multiple connections with other folk researching here. You will probably find the same.

You would probably need to sight, or else get someone to sight, the original Zennor PR for you to know who the witnesses to John and Elizabeth's marriage are -- this kind of information is typically not included in PR transcriptions. However I think it would be a worthwhile thing to pursue. You would also get therein the signatures of the parties (if they were literate) and their occupations, etc as well as the details (possibly including signatures here also) of the witnesses.
Remember that witnesses could also be relatives on the groom's side, or even be unrelated local folk such as whoever the parish clerk was at the time.
A look at the adjacent marriage entries would show whether or not the same witnesses appear there also, and if not, that would suggest that they were associates of the parties. Sometimes parents signed as witnesses, but not always. Sometimes siblings signed. I found one case where the bride's parents were dead and the witnesses were the groom's father and another man whose own wife turned out to have the same maiden name as the bride, and who was therefore in all probablity her brother-in-law.
If the same witnesses also appear in other Michell or Richards marriages around that time, but at the same time do not appear in other marriages not involving either of these two families, then that of course would be potentially very significant, and may allow to you identify siblings of either the bride or the groom. You may want to check the registers of the adjacent parishes as well as Zennor in this particular regard.

On the issue of onomastics (naming patterns) in the families, the less common a name was in the area the more of a clue it is for names likely to occur in the parents' own families. In other words names like "John", "Elizabeth" and "Mary" are so common in Cornwall that they cannot serve as much of a guide here.
But "Louisa" "Grace" and at times "Jane" are less frequent, and as for "Rosina" and "Lavinia", you are potentially really in luck here as they are very uncommon. Names of course could be, and usually were, taken from both the mother's and the father's sides of the family, so may provide you with a clue on both sides. sometimes children were named after more distant relatives, or even after, say, the local vicar but those situations are the exception rather than the rule.

[trencrom]

I see that there was a christening in Zennor itself, 29 JUL 1804 of Elizabeth daughter of Samuel Michell. This is from the parish register transcript done by Treffy Hoblyn. ;D

For what it may be worth, there is also a Lavinia Michell christened at Gwinear in 1819 to a William and Ann Michell.

[Cornish Terrier]

Trencrom - thanks for your input into this little problem.

The 1804 baptism is that of Elizabeth whom I believe to be the daughter of Samuel Michell and Mary (nee Trewhella).
This is also the one I believe involved in the marriage to John Richards.

I have done a search of the Victorian BDM Index but can find no other member of Elizabeth's family in this State.

A younger sister, Maria, married Thomas Quick at Zennor in 1835 and had 9 children of whom I am aware.

Maria was buried at Zennor 14th August 1855, age 41, of Old Poor House.

Thomas Quick (from the later Census records) appears to have re-married to someone named Alorvina who, herself, may have been previously married to someone named 'Pearce'.

I think this because the Census shows 'Pearce' children in the Household of Thomas Quick.

BAZ -

As Elizabeth Richards was a widow when she died in 1889 I still suggest that it is possible either one of the two John Richards deaths I supplied in my recent may have been her husband. (Remains to be seen.)

I have located marriages for all daughters of John and Elizabeth except for Elizabeth, Louisa and Lavinia.

I do have a list of 'possibles' for Elizabeth but have found no death record for her to say which might have been her husband.

Louisa, as you stated, died in NSW so it is not really possible for me to do much there - at the moment.

Lavinia - may have died in Victoria in 1922 but, if so, she is indexed as Lavinia Pietz Richards.

Would appreciate if you could supply any further details you have (as suggested) for Louisa, Eliza and Grace from Certificates or Newspapers.

If you think any of these details may be sensitive then please send them via a PM and I will deal with them accordingly.

[bazza]

Thanks guys, thats a lot in such a small time (nothing definate yet, but it all helps!)

Ian, I am now thinking it was the second of the John Richards you mentioned as being 'my' one. I purchased the certificate of the son of Samuel & Ann (the wrong one!) but cannot locate it at present, because my mum has it... John Richards & Mary Thomas married in Zennor on 1 Sep 1796 and from censuses that MAY be John (the Elder) his occupation is cordwainer and later boot and shoe maker, which ties in with John's occupations.

Trencrom, It would be very difficult for me to get hold of the PRs as I'm in Australia, but I would be extremely gratefull if someone had some spare time to check them for me.

Ian, Elizabeth is the only daughter I have unaccounted for. Louisa married Samuel Nowell, who died in a mining accident in 1872, then remarried to George Morris in 1874. I donot believe Lavinia married and the Pietz ties in with the Piety middle name I found while trawling the internet for St. Ives Records - she was baptised in the Primative Methodist Circuit of St. Ives, documented on the West Penwith Resources site.

Gotta run now... will talk more later.

[Cornish Terrier]

;)Baz - thanks for that reply as it all 'looks good'. (More work to be done of course )

I have been off-line for several hours due to some 'tecnical failure' and thought I would check things before heading off to bed.

I was a little surprised to find the link was online again.

Must get some sleep as I have to sell raffle tickets for the Fire Brigade tonight and raise some money for ourselves and one of our nearby Brigades who do not have the same population base as we do.

BAZ - where in Oz are you.

I live in Chiltern, near Wodonga and Wangaratta in Victoria.

Best go now so I can get that sleep and should, hopefully, be able to input more tonight.

Ian

And thanks to Trencrom for your input which may prove more valuable as we progress.

[Zenobia]

ianjtrewhella said:

Trencrom - thanks for your input into this little problem.

The 1804 baptism is that of Elizabeth whom I believe to be the daughter of Samuel Michell and Mary (nee Trewhella).
This is also the one I believe involved in the marriage to John Richards.

I believe you are mistaken here.

I was looking at the other post, where londoner pointed out my Samuel Michell GedCom entry, showing the following alleged children for Samuel and Mary:

Samuel MITCHELL c: 12 AUG 1798 in ,Towednack,Cornwall,ENG
William MITCHELL c: 24 MAY 1801 in ,Towednack,Cornwall,ENG
John MITCHELL c: 29 JAN 1804 in ,St. Uny Lelant,Cornwall,ENG
Robert MITCHELL c: 22 JUN 1806 in ,St. Uny Lelant,Cornwall,ENG
Daniel MITCHELL c: 9 JUL 1809 in ,St. Uny Lelant,Cornwall,ENG
Mary MITCHELL c: 5 JAN 1812 in ,Towednack,Cornwall,ENG
Maria MITCHELL c: 20 NOV 1814 in ,Zennor,Cornwall,ENG
Eliza MITCHELL c: 29 JUN 1817 in ,Zennor,Cornwall,ENG

Not only was there no Elizabeth, but nowhere for her to fit.

So I checked the IGI and found an Elizabeth chr. 29 Jul 1804 at Zennor to a Samuel - obviously there is a clash here.

Looking a bit deeper I discovered that the last two children in my list above almost certainly do not belong there.

You see, there were TWO contemporary Samuel Mitchells, both apparently originating in Zennor, and both having children at the same time.

One married Mary Trewhella, and was concentrated in Towednack and Lelant.

The other also appears to have been married to a Mary ______ by 1814 and remained at Zennor. As there is a gap in his children, he may easily have first married an Elizabeth Laurie (Lawry). There are a number of Lawry families at Zennor.

Samuel Mitchell chr. 31 Mar 1775 at Zennor to Robert Mitchell
Samuel Mitchell, chr. 11 May 1777 at Zennor to Samuel Mitchell

I believe it was the first of the two who married Mary Trewhella, as this Samuel had a son named Robert.

His children were:

1. Samuel, chr. 12 Aug 1798 at Towednack to Samuel and Mary (Rick's Towednack site)
2. William chr. 24 May 1801 at Towednack to Samuel and Mary "from Lelant" (Rick's Towednack site)
3. John chr. 29 Jan 1804, Lelant (IGI - Samuel & Mary)
4. Robert chr. 22 June 1806 Lelant (IGI - Samuel & Mary)
5. Daniel chr. 9 Jul 1809, Lelant, to Samuel and Mary (Max Adam's Lelant Site)
6. Mary chr. 5 Jan 1812, Lelant, to Samuel & Mary (Max Adam's Lelant Site)

The other Samuel remained in Zennor and had 6 children chr. there. All are from the IGI, and have only the father's name given, except for the last two, where the parents are Samuel and Mary:

1. Jane chr. 29 Aug 1802
2. Elizth. chr. 29 Jul 1804
3. Anne chr. 29 Jun 1806
4. Samuel chr. 11 Oct 1812
5. Maria chr. 20 Nov 1814
6. Eliza chr. 29 Jun 1817

Your Elizabeth listed with this latter group would be the wife of John Richards. Her mother probably WAS Elizabeth Lawry, and Samuel remarried to a Mary between Anne and Samuel.

[Zenobia]

Maybe Trencrom could check Zennor burials to see if we can locate an Elizabeth Mitchell dying between 1806 and 1812.

[Zenobia]

Found something else possibly of interest...

A Samuel Mitchell and a MARY Lowry were m. 10 Sep 1798 at Modbury, Devon. I ran the IGI batch numbers for the parish and checked for chr. between that date and about 1810, but nothing for Samuel, although there were other Mitchell families.

[Zenobia]

Some census info:

1841, Ludgvan, Nancledron: (the next place is Amalibry - shouldn't this be Towednack?)

Samuel Michell, age 65, farmer, b. in county
Mary Michell, age 65, b. in county
Ann Michell, age 20, b. in county
(next door is son Samuel, age 45)

1841, Zennor, Tregarthen:

Samuel Michell, age 60, ag. lab., b. in county
Mary Michell, age 60, b. in county

1851, Towednack, Chylasson:

Samuel Michell, head, age 77, retired joiner, b. Zennor
Mary Michell, wife, age 76, b. Towednack

1851, Zennor, Tregurhen:

Samuel Michell, head, age 74, widowed, ag. lab., b. Zennor

[trencrom]

Baz, you would probably need to write to/email Cornwall Record Office and ask for a photocopy of the marriage entry from the Zennor PR. You have the date and the names of the parties so it would be a straightforward process, and not too expensive as it is not a certificate.

Zenobia, I would agree with your reasoning about the two families. The Devon reference could be a complete error on the son-in-law's part, although it could alternatively be that the family spent some years in Devon before returning to Zennor and that this memory of early years spent there was the reason why Devon shows up at the birthplace. IGI coverage for Devon strikes me as decidedly poor compared to Cornwall, which has frustrated me with a similar situation involving one of my (non-Cornish ) ancestral families where the same info as to birthplace was recorded on the Australian death cert of the immigrant concerned.
It looks like it will probably be necessary for someone to do a bit of a study on the Penwith Michells as a whoile to ascertain the identities of the various Samuels.
Could the gap in the christenings that you have pointed out be due to the family being resident in Devon in the years in question?
Just a thought.

[trencrom]

Zenobia, no burial found for an Elizabeth Michell in Zennor in the time frame you asked for (per Diane Donohoe's transcription)
A burial there though for a Samuel Michell (of Tregurthen) in 1853 aged 77, and another in 1841 aged 29.

[crida]

Hello Baz
If you can wait a week or so I should be able to look up the Zennor marriage for you in the parish records.
Crida

[bazza]

Firstly, Crida, I can wait for how ever long it takes...

Ian, what a coincidence!!! I'm in Wodonga!!

Zenobia, thanks for clarifying that. These people are really confusing me. It seems that the Michell family of Zennor shared common names like Samuel, Daniel, Mathew, John and Robert. The name Polly has also come up a few times..... Thanks for the censuses as well - I reckon the Tregarthen ones are mine, as the age ties in with a 1777 christening, and Elizth's d/c states her father was a farmer, not joiner, though it could be the Ludgvan one in '41 (wonder as to the realtionship of Ann, as his daughter Anne would be about 35 y/o, not 20.

Louisa's d/c does not tell much regarding the family, the parents are listed correctly but children are only listed as one son and four daughters deceased. She died of a cerebral haemorrhage in a Aged Care Facility in Sydney. Grace's death notice in the Hamilton Spectator on 11 Sep 1920 said:
'HEAZLEWOOD - On 8th September, at the residence of her son-in-law, W. T. Stevenson, Coleraine Road, Hamilton, Grace Mitchell, the dearly loved wife of the late William G. Heazlewood, of Portland, loving mother of Bessie, Euphie, Nina, Grace, Leo, Annie and Rose; loved grandmother of the late Pte W. J. Stuchberry, Sergt Lex Stevenson, Lance Corporal Edgar Stevenson and Pte T. Rowlands - aged 82 years.
Peace, Perfect Peace. Our Mother.'

Anyway, I think that'll be all from me tonight...