anne
Noweth
Posts: 10
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Post by anne on Jul 28, 2007 11:10:30 GMT -5
I am new to this board - I picked up some threads about the Phillips family of Zennor/Phillack etc after a google search. Another relative and I have just started looking at the Phillips of Zennor after finally finding confirmation that our Phillips of St Just in Penwith are connected to Zennor (via a will mentioning the poor of Zennor). My 4xgreat-grandfather Thomas Shakerley married Alice Phillips in St Just.
Our earliest St Just Phillips is James Phillips who married Elizabeth Rawling/Rawlins in St J in 1724 and had children James, Elizabeth, Matthew, Prudence, Joanna, Ann and Alice and died in 1746 leaving a will naming the poor of Zennor.
There is an online will extract for Matthew Phillips of Zennor proved in 1735 mentioning brothers James, Henry and Samuel (deceased) and sister Ann Eddy as well as Samuel's children Matthew, James, Henry, Judith, Ann and Samuel. His widow was Catherine. there are also mentions of Sweet and Mitchell families which I have seen mentioned on this site.
We are hypothesising that our James of St Just was this Matthew's brother and that Matthew married Catherine Rosewell in 1719 in Uny Lelant. I may be rehashing old ground for other members but I would be grateful to know if anyone has information that would help us to confirm this. Unfortunately there seem to be relatively few online records for Zennor and Uny Lelant and the IGI doesn't seem to be complete. Any help would be appreciated.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 28, 2007 13:23:00 GMT -5
Anne - I reckon I have some of that information here so will try to take a quick look at it now for you.
Only have about an hour to do it but will see what I can find now but may have to pursue it more in the next day or so.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 28, 2007 13:34:32 GMT -5
Anne - back again I have a basic outline of your James PHILLIPS who married Elizabeth RAWLINS in 1724 but there are some queries. Firstly - I show the third child (MATTHEW) as PASKOW from IGI bp. 22nd March 1729 at St Just in Penwith. Secondly - I do not have a record of daughter ANN. Thirdly - I do not believe I have details of that 1746 Will of your James Phillips. Would appreciate it if you could PLEASE supply me with further on the above whilst I do some more checking on the rest of your note. I presume it was the daughter Alice of this family who married Thomas Shakerley. Will hopefully post another note very shortly.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 28, 2007 14:21:20 GMT -5
Some more for the mix and see what we come up with. Need confirmation of date on that one please. Previously mentioned but details of that Will would be handy if possible. Mention of the 'poor of Zennor' certainly points to connections with that Parish so let us see what can be found. To save a further 'quote' - My understanding is that this Matthew was, indeed, the man who married Catherine ROSEWALL however I believe the marriage was at ZENNOR with Catherine being 'of St Ives'. Matthew was the son of Matthew PHILLIPS who married a daughter of Edward STEVENS at Zennor 23rd July 1674 (as far as I can ascertain). His (your Matthew's) grandparents were Matthew PHILLIPS m. Judith SWEETE at Zennor in 1645. Catherine ROSEWALL, I believe, was baptised at St Ives (IGI) 16th Octobert 1681 d/o Thomas ROSEWALL and Jone PAYNTER. NOW - it is possible that this is the same man who married ALICE OATS, of St Just, at Zennor in1718 and appear to have a daughter named ANN bp. at St Just in 1722. This is merely a 'possibility' as that baptism was over three years from the marriage and I, so far, have no further children from the marriage. Could be a case of Alice dying at or soon after childbirth and young Alice being baptised late .... But (just to keep everyone thinking about this ) 21st September 1636, St Just in Penwith JAMES PHILLIPS m. ALICE GRENFELL (son PASCO bp. 1st November 1638 (IGI) at St Just) Therefore it is possible we are dealing with two separate James PHILLIPS at St Just at the same time in the 1730's. Don't know if that helps or confuses but I am sure our 'friends' will lend a helping hand. ;D Look forward to any of those further details I requested and let's see how we go.
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anne
Noweth
Posts: 10
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Post by anne on Jul 28, 2007 16:14:58 GMT -5
Trying to keep up with speedy posting! We think that James married Eliz Rawling as his second wife and his first wife was Alice Oates. All children are baptised after the 1724 marriage to Elizabeth except Ann who appears in the will. There is an Ann daughter of James and Alice as you have noted. I only have a summary of the will: James Phillips of St Just 1746 will names son Matthew; 'my wife'; daug Ann to be paid out in 1 year; Daugs Elizabeth, Joane and Alls to be paid out at age 21 years; makes his wife and son James executors; then gives 5/- to the poor of this parish, and 5/- to the poor of Zennor. Witnesses William Oats, Thomas Saundry, and William . An inventory for £151-14-06 was taken 7th June 1746 by William Oats (diff sig to will) and Thos Williams.The Alice who married Thomas Shakerley was the great-granddaughter of James Phillips and Eliz Rawling. Her father James Phillips married his cousin Alice Phillips - that Alice was the daughter of another James Phillips-Alice Grenfell marriage in 1754. Alice married Thomas Shakerley 2 April 1816 in St Just. They alread had an illegitimate son James, baptised as James Phillips in 1810 and Alice's father James had formally prosecuted Thomas for fornication and getting Alice pregnant! Hope this helps.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 29, 2007 10:01:51 GMT -5
A little 'slow' progress to report. I do not have early St Just records apart from IGI so will have to run with that for now. But I have found two interesting entries regarding the family of James and Elizabeth (Rawlins) Phillips. An earlier version of IGI recorded:- Pascow s/o James & Elizabeth Philips bp. 22 March 1729 Prudence d/o James & Elizabeth Philips bp. 30 Mar 1731 The latest online version shows:- Pascow OR Mathew - same date Prudence OR Joanna - same date but with a death 28 June 1732 IGI shows only 46 entries for Phillips (sic.) at St Just in Penwith and I have 30 of those in my database. Of the remaining 16 all are after 1812 except for the following two:- Alice d/o Alice bp. 4th April 1790 James s/o Alice bp. 29th August 1810 (He is obviously the one you mentioned in your last.) Working on the "30" - there are some indications (apart from the 1746 Will) that there may have been Zennor connections. The few very early recordings of the family at St Just will need to be checked and we must also remember that there were Phillips at St Buryan also. Hmmmm - - So the "Alice d/o Alice" above is going to be the Alice who married Thomas Shakerley. Therefore she was baptised only a month after her parents marriage - but why baptised only as 'daughter of Alice'. The question must be asked - if James was her father then why was she baptised as "daughter of Alice" - or was her father someone else. I will make alterations to my database and see how this looks. Ooops! - starting to look a little awkward at the moment. Seems I have myself a little confused with all the James Phillips running around. You say that Alice (m. Thomas Shakerley) was the 'great-grandaughter' of James & Elizabeth (Rawling). Then you say her father was James - so he must be the GRANDSON of James and Elizabeth.Now, this James married his cousin ALICE PHILLIPS who was daughter of yet another James who had married Alice Grenfell. (This last James is the one I had placed as son of James and Elizabeth so I need some clarification.) 1. Which son of James and Elizabeth was the grandfather of Alice Shakerley. 2. If the James who married Alice Grenfell was a cousin - then who were his parents. If you can supply those couple of details it would be extremely helpful. Poor Confused Cornish Terrier -
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anne
Noweth
Posts: 10
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Post by anne on Jul 29, 2007 11:19:11 GMT -5
It's confusing I know!
1 Alice Philips dau of Alice is the daughter of James as far as we can tell - he makes an almighty fuss when Thomas Shakerley gets her pregnant and is referred to as her father in the fornication prosecution. We rather thought she might have been born before the wedding and baptised after it and the vicar refused to go along with the attempt to make everything look respectable!
2 James and Alice Phillips - cousins. James' parents were Matthew Phillips and Grace Bonetto. Alice's were James Phillips and Alice Grenfell. James snr and Matthew were brothers and both sons of James Phillips and Eliz Rawling. Some doubt was shed on James' parentage by a 1766 burial of a James son of Matthew but all other evidence indicates that James (bap 1762) lived into adulthood. We wondered if the name was "recycled" for a child clearly unlikely to survive. I have the same scenario in one of my north-east lines where a child I know lived to adulthood was apparently also buried at 18 months old!
3 Joanna and Prudence were different children. Prudence died in 1732 and Joanna lived until at lease 1746 as she features in her father's will, as does Matthew - no other mention of Pascoe.
Hope this makes some sense!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 29, 2007 11:39:14 GMT -5
Thanks Anne - will now take another look at things.
The Prudence/Joanna situation looks to me like another problem with people who submit information to IGI - just don't know how it works but ...
Do not know about the Pasckow/Matthew situation but I would guess it is similar.
Anyway - now I have a little more to go on I will take another look and get back to you.
Be good to get a look at the original St Just PR's.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 29, 2007 13:06:58 GMT -5
Okay - I think I am starting to understand this situation a little better. Still have to make the further database updates but ... It is starting to look like my old 'distrust' of IGI is coming to the surface again. I do not blame the Administrators for this for they are relying on input from their members and this seems to be where the problem lies. From your latest regarding James Phillips s/o Matthew and Grace I have deduced that the likelihood of one such IGI problem has occurred. Without access to the St Just PR's I have to assume that there was a James Phillips buried in 1766 ('possibly' at St Just'). It is possible this burial was simply recorded as - James Phillips. Whoever transcribed this record and submitted it for IGI may have been guilty of 'assumption'. I have, in the past, made the same mistake with other families where events have been recorded like this. Having just updated information on James being son of Matthew and Grace I have another question. Matthew and Grace (Bonetto) were married in November 1757. 1st child Judith is bp. April 1759 2nd child James is bp. Oct 1763 3rd child Samuel is bp. Apr 1771 Seems logical there would be more children in here unless we are dealing with late baptisms. However, the names involved certainly add weight to the suggestion of that Zennor Link. We now need to find the correct link for James back to Zennor. Here is another potential problem. It appears very likely (possibly obvious) that the James Phillips who married Alice Oats in 1718 at Zennor is the same man who married Elizabeth Rawlins at St Just in 1724. By the first marriage he had daughter Ann who was named in his Will of 1746 and the second marriage provides the rest of the children named. We need to think about this now. (ZENOBIA & TRENCROM!!) By my reckoning, if I have previously correctly identified the James Phillips who married Alice Oats then the situation is this:- Matthew Phillips m. [____} Stevens 23rd July 1674 Zennor (other children) James bn. after 1674 but before 1692. This James believed to be married to Alice Oats in 1718. At this time he would have been aged anywhere between 25 and 44. IF he is widowed and then marries Elizabeth Rawling he is going to be somewhere between 33 and 49 years old. Last known child (Alice) is baptised in 1737. James could have been up to 62 years old when Alice was born and, therefore 71 when he died. This is working on the 'extreme' scenario but I would like thoughts from all before I update my database further.
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anne
Noweth
Posts: 10
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Post by anne on Jul 29, 2007 14:18:36 GMT -5
Matthew and Grace Bonnetto had 2 more children - another Judith baptised in 1764 and Elizabeth (no baptism but mentioned in the will of her mother's second husband).
Your calculations about James's 2 marriages are quite right but even the "extreme scenario" doesn't rule out this James - and if he married Alice around normal marriageable age he would be easily the right age to be having his last child in 1737.
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anne
Noweth
Posts: 10
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Post by anne on Jul 29, 2007 14:50:50 GMT -5
Hmm, new dilemma. There are 2 Alice Oates baptised in St Just in 1690 and 1699 - one of them presumably married James Phillips and the other John Grenfell in 1722 (another closely related family - John and Alice's daughter, Alice Grenfell married James' son). The consensus is that it was the 1699 Alice who married John Grenfell in 1722 but I have to say, I am not sure why other than the their respective ages.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 30, 2007 0:36:37 GMT -5
Thankyou once again for additional information - but I still have a problem. You say that Grace (Bonetto) Phillips was married a second time. Could you please give me details of Matthew Phillips' death and also details of the second marriage for Grace. Have just tried an IGI search for that second marriage and have found another problem there. According to IGI there was a marriage for John CLEMENS and Grace PHILIPS at UNY LELANT on December 24th 1786. (This is one of two possible marriages I have found for Grace.) However - a check of Phillimore & Taylor Marriages for Lelant shows that this event does not exist in this particular Parish. The other 'possible' I found is equally interesting but one that I cannot check:- John CLEMENCE m. Grace PHILIPS at Crowan May 22nd 1787 Extending my search of IGI a little further:- Samuel JENKINS m. Grace PHILLIPS at PAUL March 16th 1793 ANOTHER one that is not in Phillimore SO PLEASE:- Details of Matthew Phillips death/burial Details of the second Marriage for Grace Details of the Will of her second Husband ** I will try to pursue this further after work tonight **
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anne
Noweth
Posts: 10
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Post by anne on Jul 30, 2007 2:16:41 GMT -5
I am looking very sheepish right now having sent you off on a wild goosechase. It was Alice, wife of James Phillips who married a second time whose daughter Elizabeth is mentioned in her stepfather's will. I misread my information as I also have an Elizabeth dau of Grace and Matthew with no baptism date but I have rechecked my information and I think we decided this Elizabeth was a mistake. Matthew died in Oct 1791 and we haven't found a burial for Grace ( so second marriage not out of the question but unlikely given her age). It was Alice Phillips nee Grenfell who remarried to James Tonkin 22 March 1771. His will names his step-daughter ELizabeth and also names James Phillips son of Matthew - one of the reasons we are sure the 1766 burial is wrong/has another explanation Apologies for misdirection - I am usually more organised than this!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 30, 2007 9:05:20 GMT -5
No need to feel 'sheepish'. Let us face the fact that we all make mistakes and also realise the fact that mistakes can be corrected. If you check through the various threads on this Board you will probably find that I have made a few mistakes myself that have been corrected. Also - do not worry about sending me on a 'wild goose chase' - it sometimes happens that (apart from the exercise being good) these little chases turn up other interesting items of interest that might otherwise have not been found. Have now just found that 1771 Marriage in Phillimore & Taylor where Alice is recorded as 'Ellis'. So I now need Death/Burial details for James Phillips and also still need details of James Tonkin's Will if I may. AND - as for organisation - - what is that. ;D
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 30, 2007 10:01:04 GMT -5
Anne - my database is now updated to reflect the two marriages of James Phillips - 1. Alice Oats and 2. Elizabeth Rawlins. Do you have any details of the demise of Alice. As for the placement of the two Alice Oat()s - we may need some more Wills to clarify that. More work to be done but we are getting there. One point that helps - I do know that James PHILLIPS married Alice OATS at ZENNOR and Alice was recorded (P&T) as 'of St Just'. Any other data (Wills) you can supply will be very useful.
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