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Post by myghaelangof on Nov 18, 2008 10:00:46 GMT -5
John Phillips could possibly have been a brother to Matthew but how to confirm it? We have a few John's floating around: (1) John PHILLIPS = Catherine OTTS St Just 1613 with a baptism of Phillip_ 1615, St Just. St Just baptisms for this period are very sketchy, so there could be a whole rack of other children unaccounted for. Albeit the burials appear pretty complete and legible and no evidence of any deaths, especilly Catherine in St Just. (2) John who married Eleanor? with a baptism of Francis (male or female?) 14 Sept 1625 and a burial of Matthew son of John 23 January 1625 (Zennor?)(see original thread by Trencrom). I believe from information elsewhere on the forum, that this John died 'before October 1639'  (3) John who married Joan ROWE (25th Jan 1625 Zennor?) sister of Richard ROWE. The will of Richard ROWE 1637 leaves 1 lamb to Thomas PHILLIPS son of John my brother in law, but doesnt mention any other children of this John PHILLIPS. However he does leave 6d to 'the rest of the children' of his sister Margery and Roger CHRISTOPHER. Does this suggest that the other children of John PHILLIPS as per his will of 1654, namely Cornelius and Emblin, were the children of a previous wife (maybe Catherine OTTS). Further weight to this argument may be the reference to John PHILLIP being granted the admon of Richard ROW late of St.Just. Could John PHILLIPS (1) & (3) be the same person? Thoughts anyone?  Mike |
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Post by myghaelangof on Nov 18, 2008 11:54:50 GMT -5
Ian,
referring back to your comment earlier in this thread:
The Thomas of 1642-1645 Will certainly mentioned Busswednack in his Will and also mentioned brother James, sister Paskus Daniell and mother 'Elizabeth' Phillips.
From this, it would seem that he must be the man bp. at Phillack in 1585 as son of James.
From my notes I have the Phillack family as being the children of James and Catherine, not Elizabeth.
15th Nov 1579 James PHILLIPS = Katheryn dgr of Thomas MARTEN at Phillack.
James appears to be buried in Phillack in 1602 and Catherine remarried:
20 Nov 1603 Wm COOPER servant = Cathron PHILLIP widow.
James and Catherine had a son John baptised in 1582, and also Pascha 1593 and Pascus 1598. Is it possible then that this John married Catherine OTTS at St Just in 1613, had a son James who subsequently married Alice GRENFELL in St Just 1636. James and Alice had a child Pasco?
Just to clarify my earlier posting, the Penwith Protestation return lists the following John PHILLIPS: St.Just 1, Zennor 1, St.Ives 1, Penzance 1 and Illogan 1.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 18, 2008 12:27:19 GMT -5
Mike - I looked at those comments of mine only about a week ago whilst having a look at the Phillack PRs and realised I had made an error. And looking at the family again just now the reason I was in error was because there appears to be NO son named JAMES. Thomas and Pascus are there but no James and, as you have just pointed out, the mother was Elizabeth. Mind you, all that was from IGI so before I tear myself away from this PC I will have a look at the PRs and see what I can find. Problem is that there does not seem much room to fit another child in anyway.  Will see what I can find and do a little thinking about it. CT |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 18, 2008 12:53:50 GMT -5
Have just checked the Phillack PR Transcript again to verify what I had found in IGI. From 1570 through until the end of 1619 we have the one solitary family - James and Katheryn PHILLIPS and there is no son named James recorded. If there was a son of that name he would almost certainly have to have been born around 1589/90 or else 1596/97 and could well have been baptised in another Parish. But that would seem unusual given every other child was baptised at Phillack. The one exception to this family is James s/o Matthew being baptised in 1599. And then in 1620 we have the first child of Gregorie PHILLIPS being baptised. Most interesting ....... There is a burial in 1594 for Priscilla d/o James and then in 1602 a James PHILLIPS is buried. Strangely there seems to be no burial for PASCHA. And that is interesting also. Two daughters - one is PASCHA and another is PASCUS. Are they variations of the same name or two completely different names?? In 1607 there is a burial for a Thomas PHELYP and then in 1617 Anne daughter of James is buried. Same Anne? - she would have been 22. Only a couple more burials up to 1639 and they are for children of Gregorie. Will try and collate all the information properly but that is the gist of it at the moment. CT |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 18, 2008 16:18:20 GMT -5
I still have not got to bed.  Just re-read your notes and also my reply and a couple of thoughts have occurred to me. The 1617 burial of Anne is worded in such a way that suggests her father was still alive so ... Was this the Anne baptised in 1595 or was it, perhaps, another Anne and daughter of a differnet James PHILLIPS? Given there are no other children baptised to a James right through until at the very least the 1620's one must wonder ... Could this perhaps be another 'refugee' from Zennor or other parts? And the other thing is that as we have only the one solitary reference of a child to Matthew PHILLIPS at Phillack in a period spanning 50 years - is that perhaps confirmation that it is our man from Zennor? And is it also possible that Matthew baptising a child at Phillack was purely coincidental to the appearance of Gregory Phillips in that Parish some 20 years later? I think it was Gregorie involved in the reference to Alphington, Devon?? I need to get all these notes together at once and review them again. Just too hard without the sleep.  |
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Post by myghaelangof on Nov 18, 2008 17:24:14 GMT -5
Ian, get some sleep mate... you'll be much livelier afterwards!! And I'm going to be too busy to look at anything until at least the weekend now! My earlier post was theorising more about John PHILLIPS of St Just. Could he have been the one baptised Phillack 1582 to James & Katheryn. And could he have had a son James with Catherine OTTS. The timeframe would be right for this James, born circa 1614 St Just, to marry Alice GRENFELL in 1636 and produce a child Pasco in honour of John's sisters. Going forward and linking parishes I noted that Thomas PHILLIPS, son of John PHILLIPS and Joane ROWE, married Jane PASKOWE the dgr of Rosamunde at Zennor in 1645. Move on 54 years, maybe 1 or 2 generations, to Crowan - Thomas PHILLIPS and Ann his wife were married 1699, and had a dgr Rosamund (1708). Must be a link here somewhere. On IGI Rosamunde's baptism is recorded as 'PHILLIPS or PAUL', as is the baptism of John PHILLIPS at Sithney in 1673, son of John and Ann PHILLIPS. Maybe this John is related to Rosamunds father Thomas. Maybe the entry should read 'PHILLIPS of PAUL' albeit we have had no interaction in Paul parish. Rosamunde PHILLIPS married William BRYANT at Lelant in 1732. The link to Crowan would also back up John PHILLIPS will of 1654 leaving money to the poor of Zennor and Crowan. Re Gregorie PHILLIPS - his will written and proved in 1658 names the poor of Alfington. Given that he was clerk of Phillack, and that his son Jaspar became rector circa 1660, I feel it is possible that this family either originated from Alfington, or were based there for ecclesiastical training, being very close to Exeter and the diocesean headquarters. Incidentally a Nicholas PHILLIPS, possibly Gregorie's son Nicholas, was Rector of the Isles of Scilly Parish in 1677. Regards your other points, I think we are lacking enough information to make sound judgements. Matthew may just have been visiting Phillack in 1599 either for business or family. Maybe we'll turn something up. ;D Time I got some shut eye - busy day tomorrow. Gotta go... Mike |
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Post by trencrom on Nov 19, 2008 3:42:54 GMT -5
A few brief thoughts on this...
Mike you say that there was a John P at St Just in 1641. Any idea where he fits into the picture? He was not Catherine's husband was he?
I have been thinking about those SJ burials you found. Chronologically they fit as you say, but I ask myself why would they be buried at St Just rather than at Zennor, given that John is described in his will as of Zennor? Rowes were a Zennor family so one would expect Joan to have been buried there --and the problem of course is that we do not have sufficient surviving Zennor burials to conclusively rule this either in or out. Although if they were visiting St Just for some reason and she died of the plague there that may have resulted in a quick burial in the parish where she died. John then may have opted to have been buried with her upon his own death, all the more so IF (note the qualification) he was not a Zennor native and therefore had no ties to the parish other than through his wife's family.
Re the Phillack registers naming certain Phillipses: do the St Just registers go back to the same period of time? If not then I think it it hard to draw firm conclusions about the likelihood of a Phillack connection. Different story perhaps if St Just ones cover the years in question and there are no Phillipses therein.
Crowan is another parish where the surviving parish records do not go back far enough to really establish a connection between these two Phillips families. This is annoying as John's will of 1657 does indicate some sort of connection with that parish, but if he had been in the Zennor area since at least 1625 then a Crowan origin (if that's what it was) predates that and hence it may just be coincidence that there were Phillipses there in 1699. Similarly "Rosamunde" has come down on the Pascoe line in Zennor and in Crowan it may have come down through Thomas Phillip's wife Ann's family rather than through the Philiipses. (Certainly it's an uncommon name, although not an unfamiliar one as Henry II had a famous mistress by that name "Fair Rosamund".)
Trencrom
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