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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 18, 2007 19:39:12 GMT -5
Zenobia - you echo my thoughts. My belief is that the name 'Samuel' entered our families during the early to mid 1600's and coincided with Samuel Sweete's tenure as Vicar of Zennor. According to Hobson-Matthews Samuel Sweete died in 1655 after 37 years as Vicar of Zennor. And to answer Trencrom - yes I am looking for the identity of Anne. But, whilst reading through those documents last night, it occurred to me that she may possibly have been the Ann Phillips mentioned alongside Rob Michell.
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Post by Zenobia on Jul 19, 2007 0:09:47 GMT -5
Just a fast thought - generally when you find a male and a female with different surnames sharing a house on a Hearth Tax list, they are frequently mother-in-law and son-in-law. This is not a hard and fast rule, but usually the first thing one should consider. So whichever Robert is supposed to be the one on the hearth tax (these Roberts are all getting muddled in my head ), he might have a Philips wife.
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Post by Zenobia on Jul 19, 2007 0:12:24 GMT -5
Ah! Just reread...
So you believe this particular Roberts had a wife named Ann, maiden name unknown?
I would say it is very likely that his wife was an Ann Philps and they shared the house with her widowed mother. What already deceased Philips had a widow Ann?
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Post by trencrom on Jul 19, 2007 5:21:48 GMT -5
Could Samuel have been named in honor of the vicar Samuel Sweete? Or was he already deceased by 1688? Deceased by the time of the Hearth Tax, when his widow Alice is named. Agreed that, as far as I know, the only Samuel in the previous generation in Zennor was the said vicar. This raises an interesting question as to whether there is a Sweete connection.
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Post by trencrom on Jul 19, 2007 7:12:13 GMT -5
Just noticed : "Ann daughter of Robert Michell buried 20 December 1663" Presumably this is a child of Robert (II).
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 19, 2007 7:38:43 GMT -5
There was also a later Samuel Sweete whom I believe to be the grandson of the Vicar and son of John Sweete who was one of the administrators for the Estate of Alice Sweete, widow in 1674.
The Judith Sweete mentioned in Matthew Phillips 1628 Will as 'god-daughter' I believe was almost certainly a daughter of Samuel Sweete and I believe it to be she who married Matthew Phillips at Zennor in 1645. I have only one confirmed child of this Matthew - also Matthew who apears to have married a Stevens girl at Zennor in 1674. (Christian name apparently unreadable by Phillimore & Taylor).
This last marriage produced six known children of whom one son was named Samuel.
This Samuel, in turn, is the second of that name that I am aware of. The first was the son of Henry and Frances Phillips and married Sarah Whytton at Gulval in 1692.
Henry Phillips was a grandson of the 1628 Matthew and it is possible his wife, Frances, was also a Sweete but I have found nothing to confirm this.
I plan to work more on the Zennor threads tonight and will incorporate all information discussed to date.
Will keep posting as I find further of interest.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 19, 2007 7:56:03 GMT -5
Another known child of Samuel Sweete was his son Lewis - as per the 1637 Will of Richard ROWE, of Zennor:-
** Vicar of Zennor for tithes forgotten 3 sh 4 d. "his son" (ie; the Vicar's): LEWIS SWEETE 1 ewe **
Re Ann d/o Robert MICHELL bur. at Zennor in 1663.
I believe this Robert to be the man who left his Will in 1711 and would suggest this was in infant death or, at least, the burial of a very young child. Robert named a daughter Ann in his Will and I would now think this was at least the second child of that name in the family and, of course, both girls were named for their mother and/or, possibly, Grandmother if we include Zenobia's suggestion.
It means then that Robert and Ann were certainly married before 1662 and enhances the possibility of our previously discussed Robert Michell Time-line being correct.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 19, 2007 8:40:01 GMT -5
Another point of interest:-
Samuel Sweete and Alice DOWNYNGE were married at St Keverne 1st August 1621.
I decided to check through St Keverne PR's to see if the name SWEETE re-appeared.
10th March 1664 Thomasin James, widow was buried - John SWEETE, Vicar
John SWETE, Vicar officiated at a PEARSE burial that same year.
The following Sweete burials also occurred at St Keverne"=
28th December 1615 Jane SWEET, widow 30th July 1624 Elizabeth SWEET 22nd March 1655 Honnor daughter of Mr John SWEETE 10th October 1660 Maine son of John SWETE 24th July 1661 Ann UX OF John SWETE 20th June 1678 Lovedaye daughter of Mr John SWETE 25th November 1679 An daughter of Mr John SWETE Affidavit Brought
Marriages
16th May 1614 Richard JOHN m. Margery SWEET 20th November 1615 Keveryn JOHN m. Brigeth SWEETE 1st June 1621 Samuel SWEETE m. Alice DONNYNGE 24th September 1672 Edward ARCHER m. Judeth SWETE
I would anticipate this last was the daughter of John SWETE.
Could find no baptisms for this family at St Keverne.
Checking the IGI shows that, of the first 400 entries, most are at North Tamerton, Menheniot and St Neot.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 19, 2007 9:11:03 GMT -5
Just who was this John Sweete, vicar. If Judith (m. Edward Archer) was his daughter then it certainly suggests a relationship with Samuel Sweete, vicar of Zennor. But - was it the son of Samuel I would suggest the possibility that he may have been a younger brother given that John, son of Alice Sweete (therefore son of Samuel) was described as a 'yeoman' when he was involved in three Wills at Zennor - that of his mother in 1674 and then again in 1685 and 1690. John was also involved in several other Wills at Zennor through until at least 1708.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 22, 2007 14:08:30 GMT -5
Been trying to work on a couple of Michell and related things so have been, yet again, re-reading much of our discussions. On reading the comments regarding Robert Michell of 1711:- Thanks to Trencrom I 'think' I may be able to answer this. It comes down to a BT entry very recently supplied:- 8th January 1625 Jane Philip bp. d/o Thomas & ANNE his wife Could be possible this is who we are looking for.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 22, 2007 14:28:01 GMT -5
Further to my last posting. Now that we know that Thomas had a wife named Anne it therefore follows that he 'very likely' had a daughter of that name. Although we have no proof - it would seem logical, given the 1662 Hearth Tax entry, that the wife of Robert Michell of 1711 (Will) might well have been the daughter of Thomas and Anne Phillips. We have determined the likelihood of this Robert being born around 1630 +/- so the timeline fits. And the fact that a Robert Michell was mentioned in 1662 alongside an Ann Phillips is interesting. Suggestions from Zenobia regarding this particular entry of 1662 prompted me to think about this again and the BT entry supplied by Trencrom adds certain weight to the theory. Comments please.
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Post by trencrom on Jul 22, 2007 22:05:51 GMT -5
This could prove to be the case, but I would be checking any local Phillips wills first to see if they confirm.contradict the same.
I take Zenobia's point but on a more general note I find myself wondering why any two people would have been listed against the one dwellig in the hearth tax --i.e. why didn't the collectors just select the one name as the ratepayer? Surely Ann Phillips was not the only elderly mother-in-law (if that's who she was), living with her daughter's family!!??
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 23, 2007 9:11:48 GMT -5
Unfortunately (and I 'may' be wrong here) I believe I have details from all the relevant Phillips Wills of the time and there is nothing to help us. The particular entry is interesting given there is only 1 hearth involved:- Hearths not mentioned in the former returns (o.t.o. = “or the occupants”) Mark Holla 1 John Grenvile 1 Nicholas Berryman o.t.o. 1 Christopher Cocke o.t.o. 1 Rob Michell & Anne Philips & the occupants 1Zenobia Quicke o.t.o. 1 Mr. Richard Veale o.t.o. 1 We have Robert Michell AND Anne Philips AND the occupants. 'Tis a pity there seems to be no Will for Thomas Phillips, probable husband of this Ann.
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Post by Zenobia on Jul 23, 2007 21:12:31 GMT -5
This could prove to be the case, but I would be checking any local Phillips wills first to see if they confirm.contradict the same. I take Zenobia's point but on a more general note I find myself wondering why any two people would have been listed against the one dwellig in the hearth tax --i.e. why didn't the collectors just select the one name as the ratepayer? Surely Ann Phillips was not the only elderly mother-in-law (if that's who she was), living with her daughter's family!!?? My only guess is that they owned the property jointly. If there was more than one hearth (in this case however there was not), then it could be that each had their own part of the dwelling. (I have read with amusement a number of wills where surviving spouses, unmarried children etc. are each given a particular part of the house, with right of ingress and egress etc). Anyway, there are quite a few entries throughout the Hearth Tax where single properies are listed with two or even three names.
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Post by trencrom on Jul 23, 2007 21:54:54 GMT -5
My only guess is that they owned the property jointly. after reading the quote in cornish terrier's ;last post, I would be inclined to agree with you.
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