|
Post by Zenobia on Jul 11, 2007 19:17:20 GMT -5
How much do we know about the various Robert Michells of Zennor?
We have Francis Phillips, son of John, being born presumably in 1625. He left a wife Jane, two sons, Francis and Robert, and six daughters.
I have long had a hunch that his wife may have been a daughter of one of the Robert Michells....
Can we get any more info (perhaps a timeline/outline) on any of the Robert Michells and their families?
|
|
|
Post by trencrom on Jul 11, 2007 22:55:30 GMT -5
If Francis married a daughter of a Robert Michell, it must have been a daughter of Robert son of Thomas, as the other Roberts all appear to be too late.
As far as I know this Robert did not leave a will.
The next Robert Michell I am aware of is the one of the 1703 will, whom I took to be of a son of George and Emlin as it refers to siblings also called George and Emlin. There is no mention of either children or grandchildren to this testator.
The next will is dated 1711, and as there are bequests to various grandchildren, and none of the names in the earlier (i.e. 1703) Robert Michell’s will reappear in this one, the testator in this instance – appears to have been from another generation or branch of the family, and was possibly an uncle of the Robert of 1703. This will includes bequests to a Mary Osborne widow and to an Elizabeth Jennings (can't recall now whether she too was described as a widow or not) whose relationship to the testator is not stated. I wondered if they might be sisters to him, (since a Mary Michell married a John Osborne at Morvah in 1659). but that is unconfirmed. I have a note here that this Robert married an Anne and had five children, but I do not have the latter's names to hand except for one mentioned below.
The will of an even later Robert Michell in 1724 includes a bequest of £10 to his "cousin Hannah Michell the younger of Zennor". This Robert is presumably the Robert who was the son and executor of the testator of the 1711 will, as at present he would appear to be the only known candidate for him.
|
|
|
Post by trencrom on Jul 12, 2007 23:10:50 GMT -5
A quick look at an abstract I did of the 1711 will shows that the Robert in question had a wife Anne, son Samuel, dau Anne wife of John Hawking, and Anne having children as there were bequests to "each" of the same, also a grandson Matthew Michell, a grandaughter Jane or Jone Hockyn, bequests as indicated previously to Elizabeth Jennings widow and Mary Osborne widow, and to the testator's sons in law Martin ..... (can't read my writing here, surname could be "Curnow"), John Hawkins and Nicholas Hockyn, and the testator's son Robert who was an executor.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 13, 2007 0:24:40 GMT -5
My information suggests the third son-in-law is 'Matthew GWENOP'. However, I have long also thought that Robert Michell was involved here and the early Phillips Wills provide a clue that I was going to approach in another area. Matthew Phillips Will of 1628 provides us with the interesting parts:- "goddaughter JUDITH SWEETE 20 sh." "ROBERT MICHELL 10 SH." I have often thought it likely that it was a daughter of this Robert Michell who married Francis Phillips and, hence, the name Robert in the Phillips family of Zennor. AS for JUDITH SWEETE - thought I would throw that one in as a bonus. By my reckoning she was the daughter of Samuel SWEETE and Alice DOWNYNGE who married at ST KEVERNE 1st June 1621. Samuel SWEETE was Vicar of Zennor 1618-1655. I further believe that this must be the Judith Sweete who married Matthew Phillips at Zennor 24th November 1645. I also am of the opinion that this Matthew was the son of James and Alice Phillips. Will probably mention this again in the Phillips thread but, for now, some quick answers and then off to bed for a few hours before I start again.
|
|
|
Post by Zenobia on Jul 15, 2007 0:02:24 GMT -5
So the question is, is there an extra Robert Michell in there somewhere that we are missing? Are the 1703, 1711 and 1724 ones identified? Did Israel Michell have children? In order for Jane Phillips to a be a daughter of a Robert Michell, she would have to belong to an intermediate one, between Robert b. 1583, and the three later Roberts...
|
|
|
Post by Zenobia on Jul 15, 2007 0:09:10 GMT -5
Rereading the above posts. So 1703 is likely the son of George. And 1724 is the son of 1711. But who is 1711? In order for him to be an uncle of 1703, he would have to be another son of Robert 1583, and hence a brother to George and Israel. But as Robert was already pushing 40 when his father Thomas left his will, and he only had 2 children, unless he married real late (okay, I guess we have established that to be the norm ), would he have had later children? Or could 1711 be a son of Israel?
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 15, 2007 16:01:40 GMT -5
Will try and look at this one tonight after work. My database currently shows him with 'unknown' parents. I do show in my database that this Robert had two sisters:- Mary who probably married John Osborn at Morvah in 1659 and whose Will was proved in 1716. Elizabeth who married (unknown) Jennings and was still alive when Robert made his Will in 1711. Another quick look at postings and then I really must get to bed.
|
|
|
Post by trencrom on Jul 15, 2007 23:19:10 GMT -5
Rereading the above posts. Robert was already pushing 40 when his father Thomas left his will, and he only had 2 children, unless he married real late (okay, I guess we have established that to be the norm ), would he have had later children? Yes he did -- he had a daughter Margaret, christened 24 December 1625. I don't see an chronological problem with allocating the Robert of 1711 as a son of Robert b. c. 1583 although definite proof of this relationship is still lacking at this stage.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 16, 2007 14:06:38 GMT -5
Worth thinking about but I will add this even though some of it may be duplicated. My working of the 1711 Will indicates that Robert Michell was probably married sometime before 1665 and it appears to have been his wife who was buried at Zennor 13th March 1713. Of their children:- Ann married John HAWKING at Zennor 13th April 1691 and apparently died at St Ives in 1748 My records show that she had at least eight children with son James baptised at St Ives in 1699. Est. Birth - probably no earlier than 1665Robert married Agnes LEMBRY at Zennor 21st November 1685 and was buried at Zennor 17th February 1724 Only three known children - Robert bur. St Erth 1691, Samuel bp. St Erth 1688 and bu. there 1691 and Matthew bp. St Erth 1691 and left a Will at Zennor in 1734. I believe Agnes LEMBRY to be the daughter of John Lembry who married Margery BERRIMAN at Zennor in 1649. Est. Birth for Robert is therefore not really estimable.Samuel appears to have married twice - Hannah Daniel at St Agnes 1st May 1697 and then Ann STEVENS at Towednack 7th August 1703. (This is not confirmed and is based on a 'working scenario') If my scenario is correct then Samuel had five children all born after 1697 with the last four probably all after 1703. Again, if correct, his second wife was baptised at Towednack in 1683. Est. Birth - c. 1670Mary married Matthew GWENOP at Zennor 6th November 1686 I currently show no children for Mary. Est. Birth - before 1670Jane married Nicholas HOCKIN at Zennor 1st December 1694 Two known children. Est. Birth - Not enough information. I would suggest that this Robert (d. 1711) was born probably sometime in the 1630's If that were the case then his father (if he was the man born c. 1583) would have been 47 or more. This is not impossible so long as his wife was 'fit and healthy' and probably several years younger than he.
|
|
|
Post by Zenobia on Jul 16, 2007 18:36:19 GMT -5
Above scenario sounds good.
Incidentally, I generally figure Cornish woman at age 25 at first marriage - habit I suppose, even tho' I am aware of the common instances of late marriages. It at least can be helpful when trying to formulate a timeline.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 17, 2007 11:10:09 GMT -5
Robert Michell (1583) would have been about 42 when daughter Margaret was baptised in 1625. Zenobia and I have often discussed this type of scenario over the years and have a 'basic working hypothesis' that we use when trying to sort out this kind of problem. The main thing we really take into consideration is the age of the woman and we have a number of occasions where it has been proved the woman was aged about 48 or 49 at the birth/christening of her last child. (And we are talking about earlier times.) So, let's refresh what we are looking at here. We need to TRY and identify the parents of the Robert Michell whose Will was proved in 1711 and who I have shown must have been married 'sometime' before 1665. I have also stated that he was probably born around the 1630's. IF he was born in 1630 then he would have been about 81 when he died which is of no great concern. This even opens up the possibility that he could have been born earlier than 1630. The fact that he had only five known children (may have been infant deaths also) may also indicate that he was an older man. I tried to give a 'rough time-line' for this family in my earlier note but there is room for revision and son Robert is probably the main one to look at. If my theories about his wife are correct then she was most likely the daughter from the 1649 marriage of John LEMBRY and Margery BERRIMAN whose son William left a Will in 1714. William Lembry named a daughter Agnes which is part of my reasoning for placing Robert Michell's wife as daughter of John and Margery. John Lembry was still alive in 1678 as he was named residual legatee and executor of the Will of his mother-in-law. The way the Will was written indicates the probability that Margery had already died. John was named in the Will of his son in 1714 as deceased. I concluded many years ago, after working through various shards of information, that Margery Lembry (nee Berriman) was born before 1625. This is interesting because, if it was her daughter who married Robert Michell, she would be contemporary with Robert Michell's father. So - Agnes was born some time after 1649 and married in 1685. From her husband's Will and from what PR entries I have found she had only three children with the last of them baptised in 1691 at which time she would have been aged 41 at the maximum. It would appear that Agnes died probably around 1691 or not long after - although I have not found her burial. Sons Robert and Matthew were buried one day apart on 16 and 17 September 1691 and the only surviving child, Matthew, was baptised on January 25, 1690/1. Unfortunately I yet have no further details of children for John and Margery Lembry other than William and Agnes but it certainly offers the possibility that Robert Michell could have been born some years before 1665. In fact, if Robert was born in 1665 he would have been aged 20 at marriage and we have been discussing this as being, in most cases, a little 'outside the norm' for the times. I now propose that this Robert Michell was born no later than 1660. In this case his father Robert, being contemporary with Margery Berriman, could have been born before 1630 and so could very likely have been the son of the Robert Michell born c. 1583. I will add a little more to this in my following posting.
|
|
|
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 17, 2007 11:32:25 GMT -5
Further to my last. The only Michell on the 1613 Church Rate at Zennor was 'Thomas MYCHELL' who would be the 1621 Testator. At this time his son Robert would have been about 38. In 1641 there was one Robart MICHELL who signed the Protestation Return at Zennor. The 1662 Hearth Tax for Zennor Robert MITCHELL, jun. Hearths not mentioned in the former returns (o.t.o. = “or the occupants”) Mark Holla 1 John Grenvile 1 Nicholas Berryman o.t.o. 1 Christopher Cocke o.t.o. 1 Rob Michell & Anne Philips & the occupants 1Zenobia Quicke o.t.o. 1 Mr. Richard Veale o.t.o. 1 The fact that the man on the main list is named Robert Mitchell, JUN. would seem to be an indication that there was another of the same name OR that the elder Robert Michell had recently died. I would suggest that the man in the Protestation Returns is probably the Robert Michell born about 1583 and he would have been about 58. (It is possible it was the younger man but he would then have to have been born no later than 1623 which would make him at least 88 in 1711.) But this means he would have been about 80 in 1662. But another thought has just occurred to me regarding the 1662 Heart Tax. Robert Michell, jun. is more than likely the father of Robert m. Agnes Lembry. The wife of this Robert was ANNE. WAS THIS the ANNE PHILLIPS mentioned in the latter part of the Hearth Tax. (as shown above) Eagerly awaiting some response here.
|
|
|
Post by trencrom on Jul 18, 2007 5:42:47 GMT -5
we have a number of occasions where it has been proved the woman was aged about 48 or 49 at the birth/christening of her last child. (And we are talking about earlier times.) . I see no problem with this --have seen the same thing in the late 1700s in Penwith. So, let's refresh what we are looking at here. IF he was born in 1630 then he would have been about 81 when he died which is of no great concern. This even opens up the possibility that he could have been born earlier than 1630. . And probably was. I've read that our part of Cornwall was known for the longevity of many of its people, so Robert d. 1711 living into his eighties is not I think a problem at all. The fact that he had only five known children (may have been infant deaths also) may also indicate that he was an older man. . I would not conclude this (i.e. that he was an older man). I have seen a Cornish family where the husband was married before 1580, died in the 1630s and had only four children. His wife was young when married. Four children is unusually low, and suggests that there were several more who must have died young. If my theories about his wife are correct then she was most likely the daughter from the 1649 marriage of John LEMBRY and Margery BERRIMAN whose son William left a Will in 1714. William Lembry named a daughter Agnes which is part of my reasoning for placing Robert Michell's wife as daughter of John and Margery. . OK: do a comparison between the families. Robert (I) = Robert who liv. 1528 aged 45 Robert (II) = Robert d. 1711 Robert (III) =Robert m. Agnes Lembry 1685 William Lembry dies in 1714. If he is brother to Agnes who married Robert (III), then John and wife Margery are peers to Robert (II). Hence Margery's parents (who I am assuming are John Berriman and Elizabeth Veale, m. 1611) must be peers of Robert (I) , but probably younger peers as this is the female line and generally the wives were a little younger than their husbands Robert (I) would have been 28 in 1611. robert (II) therefore fits in as a son, probably a younger son, of Robert (I) I concluded many years ago, after working through various shards of information, that Margery Lembry (nee Berriman) was born before 1625.. Yes. Elizabeth remarried to John Upcott in that year.
|
|
|
Post by trencrom on Jul 18, 2007 7:27:41 GMT -5
Cornish terrier, I get the impression that you are trying to ascertain the parentage of Anne who married Robert (II). I don't have her parentage, but onomastic evidence may provide a clue: From what I have seen, just about every Cornish nuclear family had some or all of the given names "John", "William", "Mary" or "Elizabeth" in it. At least, that's the impression I get! These names therefore appear far too frequently to draw any naming pattern conclusions from their occurence. From what I have seen, "Thomas", "Richard", "Jane" and "Joan" are often not much better in that regard. However, when you start getting to names like "Sampson", "Ursula", "Job" & "Zenobia" then you are dealing with names that were sufficiently uncommon to serve as possible indications of ancestry. Now in the case of Robert (II), we have the following as names of his children: "Mary" -- far too common to indicate anything by itself "Ann" -- obviously named after the mother "Robert" -- obviously named after the father "Samuel" -- this is the standout one. Yes it's a biblical name, but also not too frequent in 1600s Cornwall . I would be therefore looking firstly to see if there is any evidence at all for the name appearing earlier in the Michell family (in case it comes from the father (i.e. Robert (II)'s) side) and if not then start asking what other neighbouring families in the two generations preceding Robert (III) had that given name appearing in their families. This could provide a key to the identity of Anne's family.
|
|
|
Post by Zenobia on Jul 18, 2007 18:13:39 GMT -5
Could Samuel have been named in honor of the vicar Samuel Sweete? Or was he already deceased by 1688?
|
|