Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 25, 2007 15:01:25 GMT -5
I would be thinking that this information possibly came from Nick Berryman's site.
NOTE:- I have spoken with Nick and corresponded with him a few times with most of that happening over ten years ago.
HOWEVER - I will say that Nick acknowledged that much of what you possibly now, and recently, see is not totally his own work.
Nick had put together a lot of this information based on correspondence from other Berr()man researchers and, at the time was working/acting on good faith.
PLEASE - do not crucify Nick for any of these types of things that are turning up just as I would expect people to not crucify the author of a Trewhella document that, from time to time, also turns up.
NOW - to try and answer the query.
The Berr()man family can be as complex as many others and information, if not handled, transcribed, passed on or interpreted properly can cause many problems.
The Jone BARNES part of this scenario is not, to my knowledge, correct and I am uncertain as to how this connection was made for that particular era.
There was a marriage at St Erth in 1704 of a Nicholas BERRYMAN to a Joan BARNES but I am yet to identify just which Nicholas this was. That part is irrelevant given that the marriage in question happened more than 100 years beforehand.
My 'gut feeling' has always been that someone, somewhere along the line, got mixed up with the two Nicholas Berrymans.
Thomas BARNES left a Will in 1713 and I think you will find that on one of the sites accessible from this Forum. In this Will Thomas Barnes names his son-in-law Nicholas Berryman who wrote his own Will in 1742.
It is suspected that this particular Nicholas Berryman came from Towednack but I am yet to clarify that.
The Nicholas BERRIMAN of 1616 certainly had a wife named JOANE and he also left a Will of which I have either a copy or a transcript. (I believe I may have both).
I suggest you each follow your possible 'resources' on this and get back to me but my research has, so far, found no confirmation that the early Nicholas was married to a Barns.
Post by cornishmaid on Jun 25, 2007 15:17:31 GMT -5
Not much good asking me... I can't even say for certainty who the parents of my John Berriman were. I don't even know when he was born. All that I know is that he had a daughter Catherine in approx 1818, born in TOWEDNACK!
So many John Berri(y)mans... all miners... all living in Towednack at the same time
I've got so many brick walls I could build a Mansion!
Zenobia, not in Phillimore. also the Zennor registers don't go back as far as 1570. Yes I do have a copy of the will, think I might have a transcript as well, will check but don't think it states the wife's surname at all. would not be surprised if it gave her given name as Joan though.
cornishmaid, the Moama (NSW Australia) Berrimans put out a book about 12-14 years ago which from memory is entitled "the Berrimans: the early generations". i do not have a copy but it may have details of the people you are seeking.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 26, 2007 13:04:30 GMT -5
TWENNACK is another option but I have taken a look at the Berriman situation there and need just a little more information. See you back there tomorrow and I will see what more I can do with whatever additional stuff you can supply. I am sure I will be able to track down the correct John Berriman for you and also, probably, Samuel Uren.
Now - TRENCROM and the Nicholas Berriman problem.
I had just completed a note about this and lost it before it got posted so I will keep this fairly short as I food cooking.
I have details from the Nicholas Berriman Will of 1616 in which he named the following:-
Elinor Trelowan, widow sister JOANE Charitie the daughter of Hugh Andrews daughter Catherine daughter Joane daughter Tomasin WIFE JOANE sons Arthur, John and Thomas.
Witnesses:- John Beriman and Thomas Beryman
So JOANE was definitely his wife and I believe the BARNES confusion came in at a much later date and is largely irrelevant to this scenario. I have already shown that another, and much later, Nicholas Berriman did marry a Joan Barnes so we may now concentrate on other areas of this family I think.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 14, 2007 15:46:00 GMT -5
Just an update here - anyone interested in this thread would, I think, be advised to follow the Zennor (in particular) and Towednack threads as there is information being discussed that will ultimately come back to Nicholas Berriman (and the Berr()man family in general).
The will of William Berryman of Zennor, dated 27/7/1601, refers to his unnamed eldest son, his youngest son Thomas, eldest daughter Elizabeth, daughter Agnes, youngest daughter Joan, godson Thomas son of Nicholas Berryman, & the testator's wife Joan, who is made the executor. John and Nicholas Berryman were appointed overseers, and witnessed the will, both making a mark.
Not all the names of the beneficiaries are readable -- part of the middle of the will has been torn out.
I see that a number of Berriman researchers have concluded that this William was the father of Nicholas Berriman who died in 1616, and this could be correct. However on further thought I can see a few problems with this identification:
1. Why would Nicholas’ son Thomas be called William’s godson rather than his grandson, if Nicholas was in fact William’s son?
2. Why also is Nicholas not identified as a son in the will, if that’s what he was?
3. Why would a son be appointed as an overseer? From what I have seen that was a role typically undertaken by friends, or more distant relations, of the testator.
On these grounds I find myself wondering if William was more likely to have been an older brother of Nicholas, rather than his father, and the John Berriman who is also named herein as another brother of the same.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 16, 2007 12:15:06 GMT -5
There are certainly a few problems with this Will of William Berryman.
I, too, have a copy (somewhere) from which I made a transcription some years ago. Like yours mine showed signs of serious fragmentation and was very difficult to read but I will point out the main differences I can see before proceeding.
1. The first interesting point is that William made a bequest to the Church of ST IVES.
2. I did not find 'youngest daughter JOAN' - but that entry becomes significant.
3. My reading was 'Thomas Beryman sonne Nicholas Beryman' followed by
4. (godson) Wm sonne of Richard MANN of Tow_____
5. I had wife as Joan but could not find or make out the word 'executrix'
6. Witnesses were Nicholas Beryman, John Beryman and William Gilbart.
7. I did not make out the word 'overseer' but did find (my quote) "There are also ____ Beryman, John Beryman and Edward ______ mentioned in the Will but any description of them is missing."
Many of the missing parts of this Will are, as noted, on the right hand side of the page which may possibly account for a couple of our different versions of this Will.
Point 1. The ST IVES bequest is the only readable or remaining reference to any Parish and indicates the probability of a strong connection to that Parish.
Point 2. 'youngest daughter JOAN' becomes significant because of the mention in the Will of Nicholas (1616) of his "sister JOANE".
Point 3. I have obviously made some sort of error here but I am not certain exactly where. However, my transcript of the Will in the page belonging to William Berryman reads as I have quoted. BUT - in the 1622 Will of THOMAS BERRYMAN (I believe this to have been the son of William) I have noted the following:-
Named in his father's Will as 'youngest son Thomas Beryman'. Also mentioned in William Berriman's Will was godson 'Thomas Beryman sonne Nicholas Beryman' which has been interpreted to mean that Nicholas Beryman was William's grandson.
Will proved 13th June 1622. (Thomas Berriman) Further grant 11th January 1632 Named:- son NICHOLAS wife Katherine daughters Margaret, Chesten and Lucretia son Arthur uncle George Berriman
I have no 'great' problem with the term 'godson' here. I am almost certain I have other instances of this from different Wills where it has been proved with certainty that it was actually a grandson being named. And also consider the use of terms like 'cousin' which have been discussed on another thread.
I also found no sign of the word 'of' when I transcribed the Will of William which is why I have Nicholas and Thomas the opposite way around.
To help my own thoughts was, of course, the Will of Thomas in 1622.
The one problem with the Will of Thomas is the mention of 'uncle GEORGE BERRIMAN'.
Point 4. 'godson Wm sonne of Richard Mann of Tow___' - was definitely apparent in my copy and I take the Parish to be Towednack. But who was Richard Mann and what was his connection, if any, to William.
Points 5, 6, 7. As noted I was unable to make out the words 'executrix' or 'overseer' from the copy I have but I was able to make out the Witnesses.
I also do not have a note of the actual BEQUEST TO THE ELDEST SON but it could prove significant. It is possible that this son was Nicholas and he had already been 'looked after'. As such he may have basically been acknowledged in the Will and was in a position where the job of 'overseer' could be undertaken.
And if I am correct regarding the Will of Thomas Berriman in 1622 then there is possibly more reason to consider that Nicholas really was a son of William.