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Post by HeatherC on Jun 8, 2009 14:36:42 GMT -5
Also, as the couple were married with the consent of all parties, this would surely mean that she was under the age of 21 when she married?); Hello Mary  "With the consent of all parties" or "With consent of friends" did not always mean that both or one of the couple were under the age of 21. From transcribing the parish registers for Morvah, Padstow and a couple of Dorset and Durham parishes I know that sometimes the vicar/curate would cross this out, but more often than not leave the printed part of the register (some early registers did have printed forms) "as is". I have had cases were the bride and groom were both into their 50's and still it said this. In fact whole decades of the register would but when it did come to a marriage where someone was not "of age", the age would be written down......... something like "John Smith a minor" or "John Smith 18yrs 4mths" Some vicars also wrote or left this line in ("with consent of.......") to show that the marriage was by agreement of the couple concerned and that there was no feuding amongst the two families being joined by this marriage. Again I have seen written as a note by the marriage entry comments such as "the grooms father was much against this marriage being as the uncle of the bride much misused his family in the past" So we cannot always take it as proof of one or both not being "of age"........ but in the case of your Ann (Nancy) Barnicoat, it does appear to be so. Cant help you myself with the parents/family of Ann (Nancy) Tremewan Barnicoat, but I will ask around and have a dig about to see if anything comes to light. Best regards HeatherC |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 8, 2009 14:58:13 GMT -5
Hello Mary - let's see if I can find some way to help you out. First of all I have to say that I think the St Buryan entry is misleading. If you have a look through St Buryan marriages in general during that period you will find almost every marriage is annotated with the same comment - 'by consent of all parties'. And I am sure not 'every' person married would have been under age.  In fact this one says 'all parties' and you may notice there are some entries only the use the term 'consent of parents'. Others use 'consent of friends'. But Nancy would have been about 20 judging by Census records so it is a little open. And, like you, I have run into a few problems trying to identify Nancy. I just searched St Hilary baptisms from 1808-1818 looking for anyone named 'Ann' (Nancy) and there is not one there that is anything like Barnicoat or even Tremewan. And 'Tremewan' is certainly confusing the issue. What I have found that might be worth pursuing is the following:- Christopher BARNICOAT of St Levan married Elizabeth WILLIAMS 2nd August 1812 at St Erth Now they baptised children at St Levan in 1813, 1814 and 1815 so may not be directly connected but the fact that they were over at St Erth is interesting given the large shared boundary with St Hilary. But what might be even more interesting is something I found while having a quick check of my database. Christopher BARNICOAT married Anne GILES at St Levan 27th December 1782 They had a number of children including four sons - James, William, Edward and John. William possibly married at Gulval and had children there from about 1815. Edward may be the one who married Keziah Kemp in 1815. John possibly married a Williams at St Levan about 1815. But James is a definite possibility. James BARNICOAT married Dinah HUTCHENS 6th June 1807 at St Levan Daughter NANCY bp. 28th July 1807 at St Levan (a little early I know). This may be a red herring - but it seems difficult to find any more about James. I have just checked and Dinah was baptised in 1771 so would be about 42 if she was the mother of Nancy about 1813. But this family is certainly worth looking at and the Barnicoat name is more common around the Land's End area as is Tremewan. See if you can find anything there and keep me informed and I will see what more I might be able to dig out. CT |
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Post by marychown on Jun 8, 2009 23:02:26 GMT -5
Hello Heather C and CT,
Many thanks for your assistance in trying to find out about Ann (Nancy) Barnicoat. I will keep digging around and will let you know if I manage to come up with anything.
Regards,
Mary
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Post by HeatherC on Jun 9, 2009 3:10:56 GMT -5
Hello Mary Have heard back from somebody that checked their Cornwall Tremewan, Tremewen and Permewan databases for me to see if they could find a Barnicoat in there.......... no luck I am afraid. They haven't given up though and have in turn contacted two other Tremewan researchers for us just in case I am also waiting on some Barnicoat data for Penwith, and soon as it arrives I will let you know if there is anything there. There is always the possibility that Ann/Nancy "took on" the Tremewan Barnicoat name for what ever reason..... But fingers crossed that is not what happened. Best regards HeatherC |
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Post by HeatherC on Jun 9, 2009 5:23:34 GMT -5
Hello Again Mary Barnicoat database now in and afraid no record of any Tremewan Barnicoat's.  However, there was information on this Nancy Barnicoat d/o James BARNICOAT and Diane HUTCHENS But what might be even more interesting is something I found while having a quick check of my database. Christopher BARNICOAT married Anne GILES at St Levan 27th December 1782 They had a number of children including four sons - James, William, Edward and John. But James is a definite possibility. James BARNICOAT married Dinah HUTCHENS 6th June 1807 at St Levan Daughter NANCY bp. 28th July 1807 at St Levan (a little early I know).
Nancy bp. 28 Jul 1807 St Levan, m Thomas MURLEY 19 Feb 1825 St BuryanOther Nancy Barnicoat in the database Edward BARNICOAT m Kezia KEMP 4 Nov 1815 St Levan Keziah bp. 3 Nov 1816 St Levan, m George ROSEWARNE 22 Dec 1846 Madron William bp. 20 Apr 1817 St Levan Nancy bp. 18 Oct 1818 St LevanGrace bp. 4 Mar 1821 Paul, m James LAVARS 11 Nov 1848 Madron Edward bp. 14 Jul 1822 Paul Eliza bp. 28 Dec 1823 Paul Jane bp. 29 Nov 1825 Paul No Ann's found for the time period. There is a smattering of Hannah's, Susanna's and Mary Ann's Best regards Heather |
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Post by marychown on Jun 9, 2009 11:26:43 GMT -5
Hello Heather,
Very many thanks for all your help. It certainly is a bit of an enigma - especially with the use of the Tremewan name. In fact, I had begun to wonder if the Ann (Nancy) who married Thomas Thomas was in fact born out of wedlock with her natural father being a Tremewan! I will have another dig round and see if I can come up with any threads. I will certainly let you know if I do find out for sure who exactly she was.
Once again, many thanks,
Kindest regards,
Mary
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Post by HeatherC on Jun 9, 2009 14:50:52 GMT -5
Working on the thought that Ann (Nancy) Tremewan Barnicoat may have been illegitimate I may have found something!!!!  Document held by Truro Records Office BMZ/11 OVERSEERS Ref No BMZ/11/4/91 Title Pauper examination or deposition Description Nicholas TREMEWEN, father of Elizabeth BARNICOATS's child, 7 Mar. 1812 (James Sellick, chapelwarden; James Sillwood and John Patten, overseers) This could well be your Ann Tremewen Barnicoat...... is there some kind soul out there that is able to visit the Records Office and take a look for us??? I would love to know the details. Best regards HeatherC |
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Post by marychown on Jun 10, 2009 1:31:21 GMT -5
Hello again Heather,
Very many thank for all your help. This matter of not being able to identify Ann Tremewan Barnicoat for so long has really been bugging me. I do think that you are correct that Nicholas Tremewan was Ann's natural father.
I had been trying to work out from the names given to Thomas Thomas and Ann's children any clues. Their children were Thomas (born about 1834); Elizabeth Jane (baptised St. Levan 24 April 1836; Rebecca (baptised St. Levan 10 July 1838), William (born 1841); John born St. Buryan 1844 - who married Hannah Jane/Annie Nicholls his cousin being the daughter of Catherine Thomas who married William Nicholls of Kerrow, Zenor -; Edwin born St. Buryan 1847; Nicholas born Sancreed 1851 and Henry born St. Levan1854 who I believe may have married his cousin Grace Nicholls, the daughter of John and Hannah nee Thomas Nicholls.
I will have another dig around when I get more time. Once again many thanks.
Kindest regards,
Mary
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2009 6:18:34 GMT -5
Hi all
Believe it or not there is life after the QUICK family.
Now I reckon that the Nancy that you have up there is actually Nanny or Ann. I have that Nanny Barnicoat, daughter of Edward and Kezia, baptised at St Levan in 1818, married Charles Maddern at St Buryan in 1843. I have the following note in my file
I apologise for coming in late and I hope that this is of some value.
Lannanta
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 10, 2009 8:20:31 GMT -5
Well done Heather and I certainly like the prospects here.
IGI shows only three entries for Nicholas Tremewan and this one may be the 'culprit':-
Nicholas Trewewan bp. 29th January 1792 St Buryan son of Thomas and ANN
With his mother being Ann we may have an explanation for the name of the child Ann Tremewan Barnicoat.
But I notice also that a Nicholas Tremewan was married at St Buryan in 1784 meaning there must be more of them.
And then to perhaps confuse matters more we have this marriae at St Buryan:-
15 Jul 1815 by Licence and consent of parents
Nicholas Tremewan of this Parish Yeoman
Elizabeth Wallis of this Parish Spinster
Witnesses: James Ricards, Joseph Wallis
I don't know if how much any of this will help or hinder but let's get all little possibilities out in the open.
Keeping this above marriage in mind I had another look at the marriage of Nancy Banicoat and found something more of interest.
One of the witnesses was George WALLIS.
Could it be that the above Nicholas was actually the father of Nancy and George Wallis connected by marriage?
I think it will be worthwhile iinvestigating the families of Tremewan, Barnicoat and Wallis in the area of St Buryan and St Levan in particular to see what else might turn up.
CT
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Post by HeatherC on Jun 10, 2009 9:54:14 GMT -5
Hi Again Mary and CT This came in today from my "other sources"  (would like a little hat on that fellow and a turned up collar so he looks more spy like lol!) re Nicholas Tremewen and Elizabeth Barnicoat. "This is an interesting suggestion. It fits with Nicholas Tremewen (Chr Jan 29, 1792- Dec 21, 1861.) who did not marry until 1815.
Our researches indicate that this particular family used the surnames PERMEWAN and TREMEWEN as it suited the particular person's (whim??) Off-hand, I can't think of an instance where they called themselves TREMEWAN.
Spellings, however were still fairly flexible."And then I also found these- Not sure if this is the same Nicholas Tremewan - More records held at the CRO BRA833 Cornwall Deeds, Estate papers and Mining papers, Turner Collection Ref No BRA833/138 Title Marriage settlement, land at St Levan Date 21 Jan 1808 Description Parties 1) Thomas Tremewen, gentleman, of St Buryan 2) John Tremewen, gentleman, of St Buryan 3) Margaret Hutchens, spinster, of St Buryan 4) Thomas Tremewen the younger, John Hutchens the younger, victualler, of St Buryan. Recites lease 16 Jan 1808 held by 1. Lives: Thomas Tremewen the younger, 25 years., 3), 22 years., Nicholas Tremewen, 17 years. Property: 3 Chirgwin meadows assigned by 1) to 2) in trust for 2) and 3). Consideration: 10 shillings. £10 annuity charged on land for 3) on death of 2). Witnessed: Samuel John, Charles Ellis Richards, clerk to George, Hane and John, Sollicitors [Solicitors], Penzance. And to add to the Elizabeth Barnicoat story......... was this another child or was both Nicholas and John put forward as father  If we could get to see the documents we would know. BMZ/11 OVERSEERS Ref No BMZ/11/4/92 Title Pauper examination or deposition, Description John Gundry, father of Elizabeth Barnicoat's child, 7 March 1812 (James Sellick, chapelwarden; William Sillwood and John Patten, overseers) Best regards HeatherC |
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Post by londoner on Jun 10, 2009 10:14:45 GMT -5
[quote author=ianjtrewhella board=zennor thread=428 post=10535 time=1244640031
And then to perhaps confuse matters more we have this marriae at St Buryan:-
15 Jul 1815 by Licence and consent of parents
Nicholas Tremewan of this Parish Yeoman
Elizabeth Wallis of this Parish Spinster
Witnesses: James Ricards, Joseph Wallis
I don't know if how much any of this will help or hinder but let's get all little possibilities out in the open.
Keeping this above marriage in mind I had another look at the marriage of Nancy Banicoat and found something more of interest.
One of the witnesses was George WALLIS.
Could it be that the above Nicholas was actually the father of Nancy and George Wallis connected by marriage?
I think it will be worthwhile iinvestigating the families of Tremewan, Barnicoat and Wallis in the area of St Buryan and St Levan in particular to see what else might turn up.
CT[/quote]
I think you will find that ELizabeth (1792) and George(1802) and brother Joseph (1799-1868) were the children of Joseph Wallis c1764 - 1806 and Elizabeth Maddern. I had not been able to identify which of the many Elizabeths she was before.
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Post by marychown on Jun 10, 2009 10:22:42 GMT -5
Hello again Heather and CT,
Having tried to discover who Ann (Nancy) Thomas was for such a long time, I am delighted that some headway has now been achieved.
I am of the opinion that Ann's father was Nicholas Tremewan (baptised 29 Jan 1792 St. Buryan) son of Thomas Tremewan and Ann Williams. This Nicholas Tremewan married Elizabeth Wallis (bapt. 9 April 1792, daughter of Jospeh Wallis and Elizabeth Maddern) at St. Buryan on 18 July 1815. As far as I can make out they had children - all baptised at St. Buryan - Nicholas Tremewan 27 May 1816 and Dionysius Williams Tremewan 27 May 1816; Elizabeth Anne Tremewan 2 Sept 1817; Rebecca Williams Tremewan 11 June 1820; Frances Tremewan 12 May 1823; Nicholas Thomas Tremewan 5 April 1827.
It is interesting that Thomas Thomas and Ann (Nancy) also had children named Rebecca (baptised 15 July 1838 at St. Levan) and Nicholas (baptised 29 June 1851 at Sancreed) neither of these names previously having appeared in the Thomas family to my knowledge.
Maybe it was the case that Ann (Nancy) was brought up in the household of her natural father and his wife, thus explaining a closeness to siblings and also the connection to George Wallis, who it seems was Nicholas's wife Elizabeth's brother. George Wallis was baptised at St. Buryan on 18 March 1802 and was the son of Joseph Wallis and his wife Elizabeth Wallis nee Maddern.
We have no idea yet as the fate of Ann's mother Elizabeth Barnicoat. Maybe she died at a relatively young age and Ann was then brought up by her father and his family. So far I have not been able to find a marriage for her. Another possibility, and I don't know whether it is her, but I have found a burial record at St. Levan on 23 July 1882 for Elizabeth Barnicoat of Skewjack aged 95. This would put her year of birth as around 1787 and just some four years older than Nicholas Tremewan who would probably been born in late 1791 as he was baptised on 29 January 1792.
Kindest regards,
Mary
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Post by marychown on Jun 10, 2009 10:45:21 GMT -5
Hello Heather,
Many thanks once again for the further information.
I don't know a lot about these bastardy bond matters, but it does rather look as though Nicholas Tremewan and John Gundry were both named as being possible candidates for the father of Elizabeth Barnicoat's child.
As regards the BRA833 Cornwall Deeds, Estate papers and Mining papers, Turner Collection - Nicholas Tremewan, 17 years, does fit in with Nicholas Tremewan who was baptised on 29 Jan 1792.
Kindest regards,
Mary
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Post by londoner on Jun 15, 2009 7:36:24 GMT -5
Document held by Truro Records Office BMZ/11 OVERSEERS Ref No BMZ/11/4/91 Title Pauper examination or deposition Description Nicholas TREMEWEN, father of Elizabeth BARNICOATS's child, 7 Mar. 1812 (James Sellick, chapelwarden; James Sillwood and John Patten, overseers) HeatherC THe BMZ reference aplies to Marazion which ties up with Ann's claim to have been born in St Hilary. I think the Elizabeth Barnicoat of Skewjack was the wife of Christopher not the mother of Ann. |
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(would like a little hat on that fellow and a turned up collar so he looks more spy like lol!) re Nicholas Tremewen and Elizabeth Barnicoat.
If we could get to see the documents we would know.