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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 16, 2008 15:24:27 GMT -5
Hi Gareth.
Yes please - if it is not too much trouble I would be very interested in viewing that Will as I have, on and off over the years, been trying to piece together the families of both Zennor and Towednack.
But on to the query. From the information provided John Thomas would have been about 45 when he married Catherine Christopher. (That is unless there were two marriages of a John Thomas to a Catherine Christopher.)
John Thomas m. Catherine Christopher 15th February 1812 at Zennor by Licence
But another look at your note shows this must be the correct marriage as Matthew was born c. 1818.
Matthew THOMAS s/o John and Catherine bp. 3rd January 1819 at Zennor
From what I can tell he was the fourth of six children details of which, should you not have them, I can post on request.
Looking at IGI and using the appropriate Batch No. for Zennor produced no result.
However simply searching for a John Thomas born anywhere in Cornwall with a search criteria of 1766 +/- 2 produced:-
John Thomas Chr. 1767 Zennor Father - John Thomas Mother - Mary Thomas
Not a lot to go on and no details such as a Film Number so this 'could' be guess work on someone's part.
Assuming John's parents were married at Zennor (and it is always possible they were not) I can find two possibilities.
11th February 1751 Matthew THOMAS m. Mary QUICK 8th June 1762 John THOMAS, husbandman m. Mary THOMAS
A search for Thomas children at Zennor with a father named John from 1752-1792 on IGI produced only 16 results.
The problem is that some of these children were baptised to John and Elizabeth Thomas. There is no marriage for this couple at Zennor however they did have a son named John born/died in 1758 and another baptised in 1759 who appears to have survived.
There are no children at Zennor for Matthew and Mary.
This being the case it is perhaps logical that John and Mary are the parents you seek.
The children baptised to John and Mary:-
Mary bp. 3rd October 1762 Charity bp. 2nd October 1763 Matthew bp. 5th October 1766 Elizabeth bp. 1st January 1780
The children baptised to John (no mother listed):-
Elizabeth bp. 3rd June 1769 Hannibal bp. 29th September 1771 Matthew bp. 2nd August 1772 Anne bp. 25th February 1774 William bp. 4th August 1776 Thomas bp. 12 May 1782
Any and all of these could belong to John and Mary but I think that Hannibal was almost certainly a son of John and Mary.
John and Mary named their second daughter Charity and it is my belief that John was bp. 27th March 1737 at Zennor son of Hannibal and Charity Thomas in which case it becomes logical that he would name a son Hannibal.
BTW - I may be wrong on this but I suspect Mary to have been bp. 25th March 1741 at Zennor daughter of Matthew and Ann (nee ROBERTS).
I have tried to track down Catherine CHRISTOPHER as my next step and the only possibility I can come up with is:-
Catharaine Xtopher bp. 16th March 1782 at Zennor d/o Nicholas
Nicholas CHRISTOPHER m. Charity THOMAS 11th May 1767 at Zennor
I would suggest that this is Catherine:-
Catherine THOMAS buried 9th May 1846 at Zennor age 64, of Boswednack
I have located the marriage of Matthew and Elizabeth and have now entered those details into my database.
Having trouble getting on to the Census Records at the moment but from the information supplied in the marriage record I would expect Elizabeth Berryman to have been the girl baptised at Zennor 31st January 1819 daughter of William Berryman and Jennifer (nee Eddy).
I will come back to this posting late. In the meantime need to check a few other things.
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Post by cornishbluebird on Jun 19, 2008 8:14:26 GMT -5
Thanks this is the information i have as fact so far.. John Thomas and Catherine Christopher married 12/2/1812 Zennor Church Children John Thomas (couldn't find baptism record) died 1883 married to Catherine Stevens Charity Thomas baptised 15/5/1814 died 22/1/1879 Tarilta, Victoria, Australia Married George Matthew Stevens 8/3/1839, arrived in South Australia 3/1/1849 further information can be found here www.immigrationbridge.com.au/www/248/1001127/displayarticle/1001210.html?pub=1&objectid=1012971&portletid=1001209&pagemode=2&(also have got a photograph of Daughter, son-in-law and grandchildren of Charity Thomas standing outside house in Tarilta, Victoria) Catherine Thomas baptised 2/2/1816 married John Cock 20/1/1839 Zennor Church Matthew Thomas baptised 3/1/1819 died Oct 1891 Buried 14/10/1891 Zennor Church married Elizabeth Berryman 25/7/1846 Zennor Church (This is Vikkies 3xGt Grandfather) Farmer at boswednack and Carnello Thomas Thomas baptised 20/5/1820 (he is mentioned on 1856 Deeds and Leases for Boswednack as occupier of Boswednack along with brothers John and Matthew) Mary Thomas baptised 29/12/1822 married to William Thomas 21/5/1857 Zennor Church Other interesting facts 1816 Deed for Boswednack, mentions John Thomas and Hannibal Thomas alongwith William Arundell Harris (from this i'm assuming John and Hannibal are brothers) 1850 Deed for Boswednack mentions again John and Hannibal allowing John Davy become tenant on Boswednack. This Deed also refers back to a Deed in 1797 between John Thomas and Matthew Thomas deceased, is Matthew Thomas the father of John Thomas? 1855 Deed for Boswednack mentions Boswednack being in occupation of John Thomas but this Deed is John Davey bringing in Edmond Henry Davey 1856 Deed for Boswednack now mentions John Thomas (Labourer) and Matthew Thomas (Miner) being in occupation of Boswednack. This is of course the two sons of John Thomas snr and after the death of John Thomas Snr, they are renewing Deed with Edmond Davey and now Henry Davey A few months later another Deed in 1856 is drawn up, presumably after the Will has been read and proved, with Matthew, John and Thomas Thomas (sons of John Thomas snr) now in occupation of Boswednack, and renewing deed with Edmond Davy and Henry Davy As for the Will of John Thomas Snr, i will need to get my mate to get hold of it, as i didn't take a copy of the said Will and i will post it as soon as i can.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 19, 2008 14:07:59 GMT -5
According to IGI the baptism occurred 16th May 1813 a Zennor.
The earliest John Thomas who was a son of Matthew who was baptised at Zennor was in 1784 so I find it extremely doubtful that Matthew was the father.
I think it more probable that John, Hannibal and Matthew were all brothers.
The only possible family I have with this combination of sons in the right time-frame is that of John and Mary Thomas who married at Zennor in 1762. Even without John's baptism the only other family I have with both a Hannibal and a Matthew is the previous generation and that would be the family of the father of these boys. So we have successive generations with a John, a Matthew and a Hannibal amongst their children.
I definitely think this is where your John belongs.
According to Hobson Matthews Matthew died 16th August 1809 at the age of 44. He was 'killed by a fall of ground in Wheal Chance Tin Mine.'
I would suggest it was this Matthew who married Charity CHRISTOPHER at Zennor 8th June 1793.
Charity was buried at Zennor 21st November 1836 age 68, of Boswednack and was, I believe, a sister to Catherine, wife of John Thomas.
I will try and take another look at this tonight and see what more I can add.
Ian
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Post by cornishbluebird on Jun 20, 2008 1:54:02 GMT -5
Now you have explained the relationship, it all makes sense now. Especially now you have mentioned Charity Christopher and Matthew Thomas as a brother, much appreciated on that score.
Not sure if i would of picked up that down the CRO though, so i'm glad now i joined this forum..!
Vikki is going to Ireland this weekend, so will get that will when she gets back, if i remember rightly it did make for interesting reading.
Vikkis family by the way, ended up in Ludgvan, Matthew Thomas b c1818 moved to Carnello farm and his son John Thomas moved on to Ludgvan where Vikkis Thomas Family remained.
Is there anyone else related to this branch of Thomas family by the way on this forum?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 20, 2008 16:16:29 GMT -5
Most welcome if I have been able to help as that is what this little gathering is about. As for others here being related to/having interest in this particular Thomas family - I should think it a pretty good chance. (Even if they do not know it yet!) I am interested to see if this line joins back into the Thomas line being discussed in one of the other threads here. Of course you will realise that we have the Stevens family involved here as well. But I can help with some of that ....
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Post by cornishbluebird on Jun 21, 2008 10:52:38 GMT -5
LOL
Yeah, interested in Stevens of course, but one family at a time. Its bad enough being a Thomas myself researching Cardiff, but never expected the Thomas family of Zennor to be just as bad.. ;D
I have pictures by the way from the Thomas family, and an interesting one where we think its the Mitchell family, wherein, it has Ann Thomas nee Mitchell with her Mitchell family, but we are not sure exactly who anyone is.
Is there anywhere i can post photos on here for people to peruse and maybe identify?
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Post by calswimmer on Jun 22, 2008 12:43:20 GMT -5
Looks like there may be a connection with the Thomas family of Zennor: Hannibal Thomas b. 1771 married Jane Quick. Their daughter Catherine born 1812 married Wm. Nicholls. Does this fit in? In any case, I'm still looking for the father of John Thomas who married Anne Nicholas 1787 in Ludgvan.
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Post by juliaemitchell on Aug 2, 2008 9:16:59 GMT -5
I am sorry not to have been involved in this discussion as I am the one responsible for it! I have become the OPC for St Michael Penkevil and have been rather busy transcribing old parish registers. Reading the postings I am staggered at how far back all of you have gone when my problems are mainly early 19th and 18th century problems. With regard to your postings I have a transcript of John Thomas’ will (died 1804) who had land at Treen and Boswednack and give it at the end of this message.
So to outline my problems from what I know to what I don’t!. My g.g.grandfather was George Thomas who married Catharine Thomas in Zennor on 21 Feb 1825.
From the 1841 census: Church Village,1,Matthew Stevens,60,,Shoemaker,In county, ,,Catherine Stevens,,70,,In county, SHOULD READ 90 ,,George Thomas,35,,Shoemaker,In county, SHOULD READ ACCOUNTANT ,,Catherine Thomas,,35,,In county, ,,George Thomas,15,,,In county, (+ other siblings) Church Village,1,Catherine Thomas,,64,Grocer Shop,In county, ,,Catherine Thomas,,12,,In county,
From the 1851 census the family was: 16,Church Town,Catherine Thomas,Head,W,,49,Accountant's Widow,Zennor Cornwall,, ,,William Thomas,Son,U,20,,Schoolmaster,Truro Cornwall,, (+ other siblings) ,,Catherine Thomas,Mother,W,,73,Retired Grocer,Zennor Cornwall,,
Regarding Catherine Thomas From the 1851 census you can work out that Catherine was born about 1801 and her mother was Catherine Thomas (born about 1778) and that George Thomas died between 1841 and 1851. There is a Catherine Thomas baptised on 29 November 1801, daughter of William. A William Thomas married Catharine Stevens on 18 Jan 1801. This could be Catherine (born 1801) parents. This is further confirmed by Matthew Stevens will which shows: WILL: Matthew Stevens, Zennor cordwainer written: 17-Dec 1846 , proved: 08-Jun 1847, pages: 442 , died: Dec 1846 sister - Catherine Thomas, widow witnesses - John Thomas, Charles Boase George Thomas, Catharine Thomas and their children are living with Matthew Stevens in the 1841 census. Matthew’s sister is living next door as a grocer, and living with Catherine as a retired grocer in 1851. Regarding the Catharine Thomas, nee Stevens born about 1777 (from 1851 census) this could be either Catharine Stevens ch. 1776 d. of Andrew, or Catharine, born 1777 d. of Matthew. Catharine had a brother Matthew (b. about 1780 – from 1841 census). There is a Matthew ch. 1 Jan 1779 s. of Matthew it would appear that Catharine and Matthew are offspring of Matthew Stevens and Christian Williams m. 29 Mar 1779. So I am pretty certain that I have the right Catharine Thomas (1801) marrying George Thomas. Catharine (1801) father is William Thomas – but which one. We know that her parents are William Thomas and Catharine Stevens (1777). But which William Thomas? He was possibly dead before 1841 as he is not living with his wife (Catharine Thomas, grocer).
Regarding George Thomas From the 1841 census George would appear to be born 1806 +/-. There is a George born in Zennor 1807 son of William. However I think this George is in the 1861 census, married to Ann, living at Treveija. So I don’t think ‘my’ George could not have been born in Zennor. Neither was he buried in Zennor as there are no George Thomas’ buried at Zennor between 1841 and 1851.. I am happy to be proved wrong about this because if he isn’t the Zennor George then who is he?
Any help would be greatly appreciated! Julia
In the name of God Amen. I John Thomas of the parish of Zennor in the County of Cornwall, Yeoman, being sick and weak of body but of sound mind memory and understanding thanks be to Almighty God for the same Do make and ordain this my last will and testament in manner and form following That to Say first and principally I command my Soul into the hand of God my Creator who gave it me and my body to the Earth from whence it came to be Buried in a Christian and decent manner at the Discretion of my Executor hereafter named and as to the Worldly goods and Estates where with God hath been pleased to Bless me with I give and dispose of the Same as follows. ALSO I give and bequest unto my three Sons Matthew Thomas John Thomas and Hanibal Thomas all my Estate in the tenement of Treen in the Said parish of Zennor and the estate in Boswednack called Thomas Thomases land Share and Share alike ALSO I give and bequeath unto my two other Sons William Thomas and Thomas Thomas all my Free ?? in the Borough of St Ives Share and Share alike Also I give and bequest unto my Sons Matthew Thomas all my Fee in Boshporthines in paying unto my two younger sons William and Thomas Ten pounds between them both Also I give unto my Son Matthew Thomas the three Cows which is now on the estate in Boswednack and one cow and one Heiffer more after my Deceace ALSO I give and bequeath unto my son Hanibal Thomas all the Rest of my Bullocks after my deceace ALSO I give and bequeath unto my Beloved Wife Mary Thomas Nine Pounds a Year to pay the Rent for the estate we now lives on during her father Matthew Thomas and her Mothers Lives time and after their decease their to be paid three pounds a year by my Executrix during her life and She is to have the Sheep and all the Household Goods after my decease ALSO I give and bequest unto my Daughter Mary Mann two Guineas to be payd by my Executrix after my deceace ALSO I give and bequeath unto my Daughter Charity James two guineas to be paid by my Executrix after my Decease ALSO I give and bequest unto my daughter Ann Thomas, two guineas to be paid by my Executrix after my decease. ALSO I give and bequeath unto my daughter Elizabeth Thomas one Shilling to be payd by my Executrix after my Decease. All the rest of my Goods Estates and chattels and stock of what nature or kind soever I give and bequest unto my three sons Matthew Thomas, John Thomas and Hanibal Thomas whom I make and ordain my hole and Sole Executrix of this my last Will and Testament hereby revoking all former wills by me at any time heretofore made either by word or in Writing or ?? whereof I have hereunto left my hand and Seal and published this ?? and for my last will and Testament this twentyfourth day of July one Thousand Seven Hundred and Ninety four. Also my wife is to have three cows and three young bullocks after my Deceace SIGNED SEALED published and declared by the testator in his presence and in the presence of each other who have hereunto subscribed their names John Thomas
Mathew Thomas Charity Thomas William Polmear
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Post by trencrom on Aug 2, 2008 23:35:39 GMT -5
Hi Julia,
If George Thomas was shown in the 1841 census as being aged "35", given that ages in that census were rounded down to the nearest five-year margin he could have actually been aged anything from 35 to 39 at that time. Hence I do not think a George Thomas christened in 1807 is likely to be your George. Check rather the local registers for any chirstening of a George in the period 1802-1806.
Second, check also the registers for the christenings of George's children to see whereabouts in Zennor he was residing at the time. That may help to pinpoint exactly which Thomas family he is a part of.
Third, check to see who the witnesses were to his marriage and also to the marriage in 1777. They may also help to identify the families of the Thomases in question.
Trencrom
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Post by myghaelangof on Aug 7, 2008 6:51:22 GMT -5
Hi Julia, Trencrom et al, I placed my Thomas's from St Just in the 'to do' pile long ago! One day I'll sort them out. However, having a blank canvas today I couldnt resist looking at George Thomas of Zennor for you. Following the family of George and Ann through the censii from 1841 it would appear that the George baptised at Zennor in 1807 is not yours! This couple lived at Trevega, Towednack 1841 through 1871 (as far as I looked) and their ages are consistent all the way through. Added to this they had a son William which ties in with another William being the father of George 1807. A quick search on the IGI reveals another 2 'local' George Thomas's: Ludgvan 25-5-1806 son of Richard and Ann; and Madron 31-8-1807 son of George. Maybe worth pursuing these 2 and see where they end up? Referring back to Trencrom's point on the rounding down of ages on the 1841 census, I think it is feasible for a birth in 1807 to be recorded as age 35. The censii were taken around the end of March, hence if you were born early in 1807 you could be 34. Now, when I was a child I always got confused by the age of my elderly Cornish forebears. My gran would refer to herself as being, for example, 70, when in fact she was in her 70th year (ie age 69). Therefore quite possible for someone born 1807 to tell the enumerator he was 35. And then there's always the exaggeration factor - when you want to appear older than your wife, or more commonly when your wife wanted to appear younger than you ! I'll leave those thoughts with you. Best wishes to all. Mike
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Post by marychown on Aug 23, 2008 5:39:12 GMT -5
I am very interested in discussions concerning the Thomas and Christopher families of Zennor as I am linked to both families as well as the Nicholls family who intermarried with both families.
My paternal great-great grandfather was William Nicholls baptised at Zennor on 10 June 1809. He was the son of Richard Nicholls (bpt 10 July 1768) at Madron and Elizabeth Christopher (bpt 27 Dec 1778 at Zennor) who married at Zennor on 8 Aug 1801. Elizabeth Christopher was the daughter of Nicholas Christopher and Charity Thomas married at Zennor on 11 May 1767 and also a sister of both Charity Christopher (1768) who married Matthew Thomas at Zennor on 8 June 1793 and Catherine Christopher (1782) who married John Thomas at Zennor on 15 February 1812 - both Charity Christopher and Catherine Christopher and their spouses having featured in recent discussions.
My great-great grandfather William Nicholls (1809) married on 6 Feb 1836 at St. Levan Catherine Thomas (bpt St. Levan 18 Oct 1812) who was the daughter of Hannibal Thomas (bpt 29 Sept 1771 at Zennor) who on 16 July 1796 at Zennor married Jane Quick (bpt on 25 April 1773 at Towednack). Another daughter of the latter - Hannah Thomas (bpt. St. Levan 17 Oct 1819) in 1840 married John Nicholls (bpt 13 June 1819 at Zennor) who was also the son of Richard Nicholls and Elizabeth Christopher - two brothers marrying two sisters. Catherine and Hannahs' father was Hannibal Thomas, the son of John Thomas and Mary Thomas (also mentioned in earlier discussions) who were married at Zennor on 8 June 1762. As far as I know, Mary Thomas was the daughter of Matthew Thomas (1714-1796) of Treen, Zennor and Ann Thomas nee Roberts of Towednack who were married at Towednack on 26 April 1740). Their daughter Mary married John Thomas at Zennor on 8 June 1762. I also believe that he was the son of Hannibal Thomas and Charity Stephens who were married at Zennor on 18 February 1734). Again, when I was a child of about ten or eleven, I remember visiting an elderly distant cousin who had a copy of the family tree of Matthew Thomas (1714) of Treen, Zennor. My parents sketched a copy of it - or at least the part showing my father's lineage - and I always kept that copy which has proved of great value to me in putting together my family history.
Born and bred myself in Penzance, I remember my paternal grandfather Walter Nicholls and my father John Nicholls keeping in regular touch with their Madron and Zennor links. My father's Nicholls family, who had in the first half of the 19th century settled at Madron, had always kept in close contact with other family members. William and Catherine Nicholls nee Thomas had moved to farm in Madron parish after their 1836 marriage - first at Tremethick and later at Landithy. I can still well remember that when I was a child we would visit my great-great-grandfather William Nicholls's brother Henry Nicholls's descendants at Kerrow Farm, Zennor. Henry Nicholls (bpt at Zennor on 20 Oct 1811) and also a son of Richard Nicholls and Elizabeth Christopher married Charity Christopher in, I believe, 1853. Henry's son William Nicholls, who married Ann Thomas at Zennor on 21 Dec 1895, farmed at Kerrow, Zennor. I can still clearly remember Ann as an octagenarian bed-ridden widow living at the farmhouse at Kerrow in the early 1950s with her unmarried daughters Charity Nicholls (1906-1955) and Fanny Nicholls (1903-1991). Their brother Willie Nicholls (1889-1995) and his wife Ida (nee Jelbert) lived across the road from the farmhouse.
My paternal great-grandfather (and son of William Nicholls and Catherine nee Thomas) was Nicholas Thomas Nicholls (bpt Madron 25 Oct 1840, buried Madron 31 Jan 1900) who married Mary Ann Jenkin of Madron at Madron on 26 Nov 1864. Their son Walter Henry Nicholls (born Madron 28 June 1877; died Penzance 22 April 1954) was my paternal grandfather. Walter Henry Nicholls was born at Landithy, Madron, where his parents farmed, and he owned Wilton & Nicholls Ltd, General Ironmongers, 18 Market Jew Street, Penzance for many years. My late father John Nicholls and his two brothers Roy and Frank also worked in the family business all their working lives.
Best wishes,
Mary Chown nee Nicholls
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Post by trencrom on Aug 25, 2008 1:12:16 GMT -5
Hello again Mary. Will send you a PM concerning Christophers.
Trencrom
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Post by cornishbluebird on Oct 26, 2008 17:14:34 GMT -5
Most welcome if I have been able to help as that is what this little gathering is about. As for others here being related to/having interest in this particular Thomas family - I should think it a pretty good chance. (Even if they do not know it yet!) I am interested to see if this line joins back into the Thomas line being discussed in one of the other threads here. Of course you will realise that we have the Stevens family involved here as well. But I can help with some of that .... Here is the Will of John Thomas who died 3/7/1854 This is the last will and testament of me John Thomas of the parish of Zennor in the county of Cornwall Blacksmith I give devise and bequeath unto my daughters Charity Stevens and Catherine Cock the principal sum of ten pounds each to be paid to them by my executors twelve months after the time of my deceased. I give devise and bequeath unto my son John Thomas all my Household furniture and Blacksmith tools and to receive the same after the time of my deceased I give devise and bequeath unto my sons John Thomas and Matthew Thomas all my live stock and to receive the same after my decease I give devise and bequeath unto my son Matthew Thomas all my husbandry implements immediately after my decease I give and devise unto my son Thomas Thomas the principle sum of twenty pounds to be paid him by my sons John Thomas and Matthew Thomas out of the effects hereafter given to them and to receive the same after my decease I give devise and bequeath all and every my messages lands tenements hereditanments and premises with all other effects not herein before given unto my three sons John Thomas Matthew Thomas and Thomas Thomas To hold to them share and share alike as tenants in common and not as joint tenants and to their several executors administrators and assigns during my estates ?? and interest therein each of them duly and faithfully paying out of his one thirds part the one third of every legacy herein before specified for him to pay in number as herein before directed and also paying the one third part each of my just debts and expenses and i do also hereby make nominate and appoint my said sons John Thomas Matthew Thomas Thomas Thomas the executors of this my last will and testament utterly ?? and disannulling all former wills made by me. In witness whereof i have hereunto set my hands this twenty seventh day of December in the year of our lord one thousand eight hundred and forty seven signed published and declared by the said John Thomas the testators as his last will and testament in the presence of us who in his presence of this request and in the presence of each other have hereunto ?? our names as witnesses John Davey Matthew Thomas also find a link to a photograph of Matthew Thomas the Gt Grandson of the above deceased John Thomas. pellowfitzpat.tribalpages.com/tribe/browse?userid=pellowfitzpat&view=63&pid=548&photoindex=0
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 26, 2008 18:58:02 GMT -5
Thankyou very much for that - I hope to be able to sit down later on today and read it properly. Will have to read the whole thread again to refamiliarize myself with everything but that's okay - must do that with several other threads also and get some action going. If not today then I hope to have some further input posted in the next couple of days.
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Post by cornishbluebird on Oct 28, 2008 4:19:33 GMT -5
no worries, i think i need to go through this thread again and work out the ancestry and connections..
i presuming the above John Thomas (d1854) is the brother of Matthew Thomas and Hannibal thomas as mentioned in the other will in this thread.
Gareth
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