CRO - Index to Cornish Probate Records 1600-1649 Pt. 4
TRENGOVE T 445/1,2 Henry (alias Nance), Illogan, gentleman, nunc. w., oath 1625
(i.e. Nuncupative Will of two pages, with oath, dated 1625. Quote the T 445/1,2 number with the surname.)
Mark, I have this volume of wills, so will put it on my to do list for my next visit to the FHC. I am hoping to get there this week. I used to go regularly twice a week, but they radically cut their hours, so I hardly ever get there anymore....
As for all the scenarios you listed earlier, they are all possibilities. In fact, I thought of the illegitimate John idea a few hours after I posted my last.
I think your Gwennap Richard Trengove looks like the best possibility; unless that is the man with daughters only? The footnote in the Visitation regarding the Feet of Fines does not indicate when this Richard might have died.
You know, if you don't want to wait until April, you can order stuff thru your local LDS Family History Centers. The Cornwall and Devon Feet of Fines are available on fiche, and Cornwall and Devon IPMs can be ordered on six films (altho' not all extant IMPs are in there, unfortunately). There are also about 12 films of Henderson's Cornish Manuscripts.
If I get a chance, I will check the first two for you, but Henderson's isn't indexed, so that would be very time consuming. As it is, I have a bunch of mental notes (hopefully not written with invisible ink) of stuff I want to look at if I get my 3 hours there this week...
I thought it was real quick to get from Wales to Cornwall...? Don't you just have to hop across a little bitty body of water?
Post by marktrengove on Jul 14, 2007 5:15:28 GMT -5
I have been turning my thoughts back to these early Trengoves and would appreciate further guidance on the interpretation of the Visitations.
The Nance/Trengove Visitation mentions that Richard Nance/Trengove of Truthall had two daughters. Elizabeth married John Courtney of Tremure and Margery married Giles Grenville. Both were involved in a Chancery Court action in the early 1550s against the Godolphins, over their father's estates (see in the UK National Archives website), so it looks as though Richard Nance-Trengove must have died in the early 1550s.
The first record for a John Trengove at Illogan is the baptism of his daughter Sibyl there in 1562.
Given that the Visitation records a son born to Richard Trengove, what are the chances the Visitation is referring not to a boy who died in childhood but an illegitimate issue? Could this be John of Richard of Trengove?
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 14, 2007 11:58:56 GMT -5
I do not know a lot about the Visitations or how they really recorded things. But I would have thought that a child mentioned as 'son' would indicate a juvenile death. However, your point is worth considering and it may well be that this was a way of recording 'illegitimate' children as I should think they would have no legal right to, for example, bear the Family Arms.
Let's hope someone a little more knowledgeable about this subject might come to the fore.
Mark, I just looked at the Visitation, and at first I could not figure out what you were referring to, since it shows only daughters for Richard.
Then I realized that you must be referring to the notation "1 son" listed under Richard's name.
This does not mean that Richard had a son, but rather, it is referring to the fact that (according to Vivian, as this portion is not in italics and has been added) that Richard was the 1st son of his father.
You will note that brother Henry (who is in italics) is referred to as "2 sonne of Nance in Com. Cornwall."
If you go another generation down, to John's children, you will see "Henry, son and heir", "Richard Trengove 3 son", "John Trengove 2 son". This is just referring to the birth order.
Even further, you will note that the next generation idetifies the daughters in the same way.
If you study other visitations in the series, you will see they are all set up this way.
Incidentally, the reason that Henry, the second son, passed down the arms, was of course, because any older brother either "daughtered out", or left no issue at all. Based on the footnote referring to an older brother of Henry called Ralph, I would suggest that Vivian got this one wrong (his track record on adding people correctly is about 50/50), and that the Richard with daughters doesn't even belong to this branch of the family. Ralph was probably real, and died either as a young man, or even an older unmarried man, with no issue.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 14, 2007 17:27:40 GMT -5
Mark - seems a bit hard to follow in some ways if you are not used to this type of documentation. And I must repeat that I know quite little about the Visitations - However I may have neglected to mention that I have seem some and, indeed, have copies of a couple of those seemingly relevant to me.
Having read Zenobia's latest reply I realised that I had actually seen similar in the documents I have.
I therefore agree that "1 sonne" means that your man was the eldest son of his father and was not recorded as having a son of his own at that time.
No comment on the last paragraph as I do not know enough to qualify.
There will be an answer somewhere but we need the right clue to find it.
Keep following a couple of the other threads and, hopefully, they may in some way provide a trigger for finding that 'right clue'.
Can tell you that they have helped me in the last couple of days.
Post by marktrengove on Jul 15, 2007 5:38:47 GMT -5
Yes, I see now!
With regard to Ralph, the Nance genealogists mention a daughter called Maude, who married a John Nanscothan of Rodriff. Annoyingly, as usual, they quote no source, so I have no way of verifying the information. Might it be in the Visitations or Feet of Fines?
A google reveals 'Nanscothan' seems to be associated with the Redruth area, but I can find no trace of 'Rodriff'. I am no speaker of Cornish, but, like Welsh (which I know a bit), I presume 'th' is much the same sound as 'll' in Welsh. That might make John as hailing from Nancegollan - a village NNW of Helston in Crowan parish.
Could this John have become John of Trengove, living with Maude, dau. of Ralph Nance, at Trengove? If they were married in about 1660, this would account for no Trengoves recorded in Illogan in the 1559 Subsidy - apart from Henry himself. If I could trace John Nancegollen and found out his father was called Richard, we might be on to something! It might also explain why the Nances and Trengoves seem to be inseparable in Illogan, St Erth and Camborne in the late 16th and early 17th Centuries, as they are 'cousins' related by marriage. Wherever the Nance descendants of Henry I are found, there are Trengoves also.
If Ralph did only have a daughter, it explains why Henry was the passer on of the family arms, as his brothers Richard and Ralph 'daughtered out'. It also explains why the Nances dropped the alias 'Trengove' after Henry. None of Henry's descendants seem to have used the name, until they moved to 'Trengoffe' in Warleggan later in the 17th Century, a name that seems to stretch back into the 14th Century.
I think it's good to challenge whether Henry and Richard were brothers, but I'm not convinced they were unrelated. Richard does seem to have been associated with the Breage/Sithney area, not Illogan, it's true. The lands quoted in the court case (C1/1344/49) of his daughters are Trengove in Constantine, Pellawyn, Prospidneck in Sithney, Anhell in Truro, Tretharrape, Carlingham (Carleen in Sithney), Bosseghan (in St Anthony-in-Meneage), Bosworles, Trembleath, Chyrose (Breage), Gwenna (Breage), Trenowth (Mabe), Redruth, Trevithick (in St Columb Major), and the borough of Helston - 'late of Richard Trengoffe of Nans'.
Against that, the Nance genealogists mention that Richard Nans placed in trust in 1525 to Henry lands of Henry Gylette, their mother Constance being the only child of Henry Gylette. Again no source is quoted, but this information does look as though it is based on something solid.
Also in the archives I came across C241/276/10. This is from the Records of the Petty Bag Office - certificates of Statute Merchant and Statute Simple, dated 1522. The debtor (for £100) is 'John Penpous, formerly of Trengove in Illogan'. Clearly not a Nance!
This indicates either a start time for the Nances at Illogan at around 1520, after the departure of John Penpous, I would think, or that John Penpous was a worker at Trengove. £100 seems a lot of debt for a labourer at that time! What it may show, if Penpous leased the property, is that the name pre-dated the Nance's presence there.
Post by marktrengove on Jul 16, 2007 17:45:01 GMT -5
Yes, Ian, I've been Googling too today and hit upon Nanscothan, Treruffe Hill, Redruth - and a local company with that name. And I've Googled further! Your Redruth hunch was amazingly right!
The name seems to originate from Madron, just north of Penzance. By searching on 'Nancothan' I got many hits on the UK National Archives website. A map search revealed no place of that name in Madron now, but clearly there was such a place there.
'John NACOTHAN snr doth horse and harness Thomas RENFRY'.
And on IGI I hit:
' Katerin Nacothan dau. of John Nacothan, baptised at Redruth on 23 April 1571'.
So clearly there was a family in Redruth of 'Nacothans/Nansothans' in the 16th Century.
The fact that there is a John snr implies a John jnr, and it seems unlikely that the John who fathered Katerin in 1571 was any other than yet another one. And the date looks too late for Maud Nance/Trengove's husband. There would be room to slot a Richard in after John jnr if needs be!
What I will do next is to ask Wendy Angove to do a look-up on the other 16th Century Muster Rolls. That, combined with a little astute Subsidy ordering from the National Archives of the UK may turn up something either to rule John Nancothan of Redruth in or out as John Trengove, son of Richard.
So a John Nanscothan marrying Maud looks quite possible. I also found them both on IGI, but as they were submitted by reaserchers rather than culled from primary records one gets stuck in one of those secondary evidence circles.
Post by marktrengove on Jul 30, 2007 16:42:18 GMT -5
Zenobia has now kindly provided me with the page from the 1573 Visitations for Nangothan, which records 'Maude, dau. of Ralph Trengove of Nance', marrying John Nangothan of Rodriff, with a son called Henry and grandchildren called John, Penhelick, Jane, Christen and Anne - clearly not the same as the 'Trengove' family at Illogan!
So we can now rule out Maude as the mother/grandmother of the family living at 'Trengove' in Illogan in the 1560s.
The 1569 Muster Roll for Illogan gives 'John Nance and his servants' as a separate entry from 'John Trengoffe', so it seems unlikely to me that the family at Trengove were servants of John Nance of Nance, son of Henry.
I'm also beginning to think they were not tenants at Trengove either. Wherever the Nances of Illogan appear in the second half of the 16th Century and first years of the 17th, there are 'Trengoves' also - i.e at Illogan, St Erth and Camborne. This leads me to think there was some closer connection between Nances and Trengoves in the form of a family tie rather than tenant/landlord relationship - perhaps a junior line.
I see two scenarios developing. We now know that Ralph Nance was married, as he had a daughter. She does not appear to haver inherited Trengove, as no Nangothans are recorded at Illogan. If Ralph had a daughter, he may too have had a son who reached adulthood and inherited Ralph's share of Trengove. This might be John Trengoffe, with the record of 'Thomas, son of John Richard Trengove' referring to another John, son of Richard, not Ralph.
Alternatively, perhaps Ralph had a son called Richard, who had a son called John. If Richard was born in the 1520s, as seems possible, there would be time to fit another generation in before the 1560s. Possibly the Richard at Gwennap and Thomas at Perranarworthal in the 1569 Muster Roll were younger brothers of John, born at Trengove in Illogan.
All speculation, I know, but at least a working theory! I'm obtaining some more Subsidy records to test the theory.
Post by marktrengove on Oct 4, 2007 16:26:37 GMT -5
I have been 'chewing away' again at the possible origins of the Trengove family in Illogan, from whom it is likely that all modern Trengoves are descended through our earliest attested ancestor - James Trengove of Perranarworthal b. abt.1600.
The problem I have had is that the Subsidies I have seen for Illogan up to 1559 only make mention of the aristocratic Henry Trengove/Nance, and no one else called 'Trengove'.
I think I have had one of those lucid moments that, I think, has led to a resolution of this conundrum. I had assumed that the John Trengove of Illogan had a father called 'Richard', but there is no record of such person in the Subsidies.
I thought I'd look again at the Illogan parish records to see if there was a family called 'Richard' there in the 16th Century. Hey, presto! They were all over the place!
It is clear to me now that our early forbear's name was not 'John Trengove' but 'John Richard' - very likely the son of Saundrye Richard of Illogan, for whom there are records in the 1540s. That is why there are no other Trengoves in those Subsidies up to 1559.
Why did John add 'Trengove' to his name? A 'John Richard' had a daughter Jane baptised at Illogan in 1560. Then a 'John Trengove' had a daughter Sibble baptised at Illogan in 1562. I am sure they are one and the same father!
We also know that Henry Trengove/Nance died in November 1561 at Illogan. I think it a very reasonable assumption that, after Henry's death, his only son John Nance placed John Richard at Trengove Farm, either as a manager or a tenant, while he moved to the grander house of Nance on the other side of the valley from Trengove Farm. Alternatively, John Nance was living at Nance, while Henry had continued to live at Trengove until his death.
What this does, of course, is remove any lingering belief that the 'Richard-Trengoves' of Illogan were in any way related to the Nances. I suppose there is a vague chance that Saundrye Richard was an illegitimate son of Sir Alexander Nance, but that is likely to go unproven without some DNA testing! What we can be sure of is that, like most, we descend from solid peasant or yeoman stock.
There are still loose ends, though! Are the Thomas Trengove at Perranarworthal and the Richard Trengoo at Gwennap in the 1569 Muster Roll one and the same as Thomas Richard and Richard Richard, other likely sons of Saundrye?
I'm hoping that the Subsidies etc will shed further light. Clearly Thomas at Perranarworthal is important, as he may be the grandfather of James Trengove, father of Nathaniel and Reginald, from whom all living Trengoves appear to descend. At the moment, however, I think it more likely our proven ancestor is the James baptised at St Erth in 1597, son of Thomas Trengove and grandson of John Richard of Trengove.
More to do yet, but I think the above is a major advance in understanding the early history of this family.