OK, so who is the John Gilbart brother 51 Annuitant living with William 39 Iron manufacturer in the 1851 Census at Battery Mills in St. Erth? I thought it was John Gilbart born 1801.
But obviously I am confuzaled First, the John who was buried in 1847 could not be living. Second, if the Annuitant was the husband to Elizabeth, then she would not be a widow in 1851 and would probably be living with him.
FYI: The 1851 census says Francis was head, Elizabeth was widowed servant.
Got to leave this fascinating mystery for a bit and travel 5 hours from our lovely Mts through civilization to the summer crowds trying to enjoy the beach in Southern Mass. The things we do for family. BTW, started to share my draft of the Gilbarts with my cousins.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 9, 2011 8:40:32 GMT -5
A very good point Chris and something that I obviously missed when I was looking at this family a couple of years ago!
I have now identified a few more anomalies but I won't be able to do very much with them until tomorrow I don't think.
But I think I may have been led astray by the fact that Francis named the children of Elizabeth as 'in-laws' in the 1851 Census. Usually in a case like this it means step-children but it is unusual here given that Francis and Elizabeth were not yet married.
If they were children of his brother then I might expect them to be called nieces and nephews although that is not always the case either. I suspect now that Francis' brother may not have married and, therefore, would be the John with William Gilbart in 1851. And that means there is a second John in the equation.
I have potentially now identified Elizabeth Wearne and it is most interesting that she and John Gilbart named a daughter Maria.
There was also a Maria Wearne who married Richard Charleston at St Erth in 1835 .............. and THEY named a son JOHN GILBART CHARLESTON!!
So I have some work to do when I can get back on to this and have time ahead of me.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 9, 2011 17:14:03 GMT -5
Chris - I am happy to have your observant eyes on this one as I have been hiding another error in my database. Only this time it was my own fault for not being as thorough as usual when I was working on this family!
If I had looked properly at the Census records back then as I have done now I should have noticed that John and William Gilbart were both living at home at Battery Mill in 1841 with their mother Elizabeth and siblings Thomasine, Margery, Thomas (as yet unmarried) and Jane. I know that brother James was already married (m. 1825) by this time but I am not sure about Francis, Benjamin or the remaining sisters.
The 'other' John was also at St Erth with his wife Elizabeth and his five eldest children. And right next door was Richard and Maria Charlestown who were mentioned in my last.
I am almost sure now that Elizabeth Wearn (wife of John Gilbart) and Maria Wearn (wife of Richard Charleston) were sisters but I need to work a little more on that.
Another point I seem to have missed when working on this family last time around was that John and Elizabeth had two additional children in the household in 1841.
As enumerated the household was:-
John Gilbart, 35, Ag Lab Elizabeth do., 35 Elizabeth Jane Wearn do., 9 Maria do., 7 Elizabeth do., 5 Sarah Hannah do., 2 John do., 3 mths John Gilbart, 7 Emily do., 6
Also notice that as well as Elizabeth Jane Wearn there was a second daughter named Elizabeth!
Checking baptismal records and the last two children, John and Emily, were children of Thomas and Mary Gilbart so I would suspect Thomas might have been a brother to John.
I have still been unable to find any record of marriage for John and Elizabeth but I suspect the eldest daughter and possibly also Maria might have been illegitimate. At the moment I can think of no other reason for naming another daughter Elizabeth although the baptisms of all children record the parents as John and Elizabeth.
A little more digging around now to see what more I might find and then it is a few hours sleep for me!
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 10, 2011 5:11:46 GMT -5
Okay Chris (and also Azenor and Bruce!) - it will be worth your while to read through this thread right from the start.
But I believe I have solved another part of the mystery although I would still like to find Francis Gilbart in the 1841 Census.
As you pointed out John Gilbart (b. 1800) was unmarried and with his brother William at Battery Mill in 1851 and I found that John Gilbart with wife Elizabeth was also at St Erth but with two additional children who clearly belonged to another family.
I mentioned in my last that these two children were baptised to Thomas and Mary Gilbart and a read back through the earlier messages in this thread gave further details of that family.
After reading everything again I tried another search and I am now reasonably confident that this second John and his brother Thomas were from Illogan.
We know that John Gilbart died in 1847 age 45 and a few years later his widow married Francis Gilbart who is currently presumed to have been the son of John Gilbart and Elizabeth Huthnance.
The information here suggests that John was born about 1802 and the information from Bruce regarding Thomas Gilbart suggests that he was born around 1806.
John son of Thomas and Margery JILBERT bp. 13th March 1803 Illogan Thomas son of Thomas and Margery JELBERT bp. 28th April 1805 Illogan
Thomas JELBART married Margery UREN 22nd July 1797 at Illogan
There is a possibility also that I may have a lead on the marriage of John Gilbart and Elizabeth Wearn but I am awaiting a reply from the OPC for Illogan to see if I might be on the right track.
With no marriage being found for Elizabeth Wearn I began to wonder if she might have been previously married so I am investigating the following:-
John DAVEY married Elizabeth WEARN 2nd January 1828 at Phillack John JELLBERT married Elizabeth DAVIS 31st March 1830 at Illogan
Life would be so much easier if these two names did not have so many variations!
Hello CT I am a little puzzled . "My" John bp Illogan 1803 son of Thomas & Marjery of Illogan would have been 37 or 38 at the time of the 1841 census. Instead he is shown as being the same age as his wife ie born about 1806 . This of course contradicts his burial record which gave his age as 45. Was the latter a guess by his family ? Bruce
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 10, 2012 14:29:35 GMT -5
Bruce - seems there is something you are not aware of about the 1841 Census.
Firstly - don't count on the details in any Census as being 100% accurate because often they just aren't. I have one woman whose age varied by up to about 15 years through the Census right up until the 1890s.
But 1841 was different in any case. The age of adults only need to be recordd to the nearest 5 years DOWN. In other words if someone was age 49 then their age need only be recorded as 45.
An adult was classed as a person of 15 years and older and it is because of this requirement that you will often see what appear to be twins in households. You might get three children in a family recorded as 15 but in actual fact they might be 19, 18 and 17.
I am the great great grandaughter of Thomas Aaron Gilbert and Catherine Costello. Great grandaughter To Ray Gilbert and Lucy Beaver (tumut, nsw AU) I have been searching for quite some time in regards to Thomas Aaron and Catherine Mary Gilbert.
I was just wondering off hand if you had any info about TA Gilberts wife, Catherine, and her parentage?
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 15, 2012 7:41:55 GMT -5
Re - Thomas Aaron/Baron Gilbart
However, my information came from a Transcript of the St Erth PR so it is possible there was an error there.
I have finally remembered to take a look at the St Erth Parish Register and I can confirm that the name is recorded as Thomas AARON Gilbart.
Up to now it would have been difficult to find this record in the OPC database also as it had contained two errors. 1. The surname had been entered as GLIBART and 2. the name entered as Thomas BARON rather than AARON.
Corrections for these errors have now been submitted and may will be fixed tonight so any future researchers will be able to find Thomas easily enough.
Hi Emma Great to hear from you. I am married to Sandra, Thomas William Frederick Gilbert's grand-daughter & d/o Arthur Lyle. TA Gilbert's wife is a bit of a mystery. Her father was Edward, but I can find no mention of her mother. Her marriage certificate shows Burrowa as her place of birth, as does her son TWF Gilbert's Birth Certificate. These are likely to be correct. However, Murrumburrah is given as her place of birth in her death certificate & a newspaper obituary; Her death certificate shows Edward as father. I was told one line of the family thought she may have been of Aboriginal ancestry as it was not to record the mother's details in such circumstances. A photo of her however does not suggest this ethnicity. I have the Gilbert history proven unproven and wildly possible on my tree on Ancestry " Walker & Gilbert " if you have a subscription. If not , let me know & I will log you in. From then on I will try to answer any other questions. Regards
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 15, 2012 12:43:17 GMT -5
Bruce - you have not mentioned how old Catherine was when she died or given an approximate date of birth. But based on the little information you have provided I decided to have a look at the NSW Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages Index online to see what I might find.
Name - Catherine COSTELLO Date - 1865 District - Berrima Father - Edward Mother - Sarah J Registration No. - 5953/1865
From 1849 to 1872 Edward and Sarah J Costello had a total of 15 children registered with six at Berrima. Two were registered at Shoalhaven, one at Wagga Wagga, one at Bathurst and one at Kiama whilst no District is recorded for the rest.
This link should take you straight to the relevant page:-
Hi CT Thank you for checking on the Costellos. While the Berrima date is correct for the lady's age, I have looked at this family before but cant convince myself they are the right family. Catherine's death certificate showed her birth place as Murrumburra [ near Harden]. However, her sons' birth certificate shows her birth place as Burrowa [ now Boorowa] which is in the same geographical area. Boorowa was also an Irish Catholic community. Berrima is somewhat further afield. Edward h/o Sarah died at Burrawang !! down near Robertson. "Our " Edward was a carpenter according to his daughter's death certificate. The Berrima/Burrowang chap was a farmer. The given names for the 12 children of the Berrima family do not appear as names for Thomas and Catherine's children. And Catherine's birthday was supposedly 1/6/1864 The Wagga birth of a Costello doesnt quite fit...mother was Jane & there was another birth that year to Sarah in Shoalhaven. The family seems to have stayed east of Goulburn. And Catherine Mary d/o Edward and Sarah appears to have died as a spinster in 1949 25315/1949 COSTELLO CATHERINE MARY EDWARD SARAH JANE PETERSHAM All very puzzling....Bruce