Hello all, One of my Great Great Grannies was Elizabeth Jane Wearne GILBERT, baptised 25th Decemebr 1832 in St.Erth.
Elizabeth was married twice. First marriage to my Great Great Grandfather Charles MORRIS in St.Erth on June 21 1853. Charles died in 1874 and Elizabeth's second marriage was to Robert William MITCHELL of Phillack in 1889. Thats the background.
My problem is the parents of Elizabeth. Elizabeth's father was John (Francis?) GILBART bap. February 26 1800 in St.Erth and her mother was Elizabeth. I have not yet identified Elizabeth as I've not found the marriage of John (maybe Francis) GILBART.
From the census and parish records I have the following children for John and Elizabeth GILBART: GILBERT Elizabeth Jane Wearne (1832-1895) GILBART Maria (1834-) GILBART Emily (1835-) GILBART Elizabeth (1837-) GILBART Sarah Hannah (1839-) GILBART John (1841-) GILBART Elizabeth (1843-) GILBART Mary Ann (1846-)
Can anyone help with a lead to identify Elizabeth who married John GILBART?
I have the details of the marriage of Charles MORRIS and Elizabeth GILBERT plus births/baptisms of their children and have also located them all in the censuses and am happy with them.
The problem is finding the marriage of John (Francis) GILBART to Elizabeth someone.
In the 1841 census they are John and Elizabeth GILBART but in the 1851 census they are Francis and Elizabeth GILBART. Hence the problem of whether he was known as John or Francis.
I've also pursued the name WEARNE as 2xGrt Granny had the name Wearne but have not found a marriage of Elizabeth WEARNE in the area to a John or a Francis. I've checked St.Erth, Lelant, Ludgvan marriages. Have not checked Phillack which is a possibility.
I hope that helps. I can give more details if you need them and there is no hurry for a response, just thought I'd post it to get some focus back on this family.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 9, 2007 11:52:34 GMT -5
Believe I can solve part of your problem. ;D
You are not looking for John (Francis) Gilbert and his name did not 'alternate'.
1851 Census - Trewinnard Mill, St Erth
Francis GILBART, head, UNM, 44, miller & flour factor(?), St Erth Elizabeth GILBART, SERVT., WIDOW, 45, housekeeper, Ludgvan Sarah Anna do., daur to servt., 11, scholar, St Erth John do., son to servt., 10, scholar, St Erth Elizabeth do., daur to servt., 7, scholar, St Erth Mary Ann do., daur to servt., 5, scholar, St Erth
So Elizabeth was alread widowed by the time of the 1851 Census.
I would suggest the possibility that this was her husband:-
St Erth - 1847
John Gilbart St Erth 27-Sep 45
But this is not the end of the problem.
St Erth Marriages - 1853
Charles Morris full bachelor miller St Erth Thomas Morris miner 21-Jun Grace Christover Jane Gilbert under age spinster St Erth John Gilbert labourer banns John Coliver
This could be ok given Jane might not have yet turned 21.
But this next is very much of a query.
St Erth Marriages - 1861
William Blewett 20 bachelor miner St Erth Nicholas mason 14-May Elizabeth Gilbart Sarah Hannah Gilbart full spinster St Erth Francis miller banns John Blewett
It appears that this is the same Sarah Hannah (Anna) but she now says her father was Francis.
The 1851 Census clearly shows that Francis Gilbart was unmarried and also that Elizabeth Gilbart was a widow (and now servant to Francis).
I suspect that Francis may have been a brother to John but cannot yet find evidence of such.
Nor have I yet found the marriage for which you seek.
But I will keep trying.
In the meantime - let me know what you think of the above.
Firstly, yes ... I have been particularly stupid in missing the fact that Elizabeth was a widow in 1851. (Just proves how two people looking at the same problem gets better results than one!). Most likely that Francis is a relation of John which is why the family ended up living with him.
So if John was buried in St.Erth in 1847 then the reference for his death in the Penzance district means I can send for the certificate to confirm. Thats good.
The marriage in 1853 between Charles MORRIS and Jane Gilbert is the daughter of Elizabeth, ie. Elizabeth Jane Wearne GILBERT (my Great Granny). I have the marriage certificate for Charles and Elizabeth. She was known as Elizabeth but appears on the certificate as Jane, under age. Jane's father was John GILBERT on the certificate, neither Charles nor Jane could sign.
Sarah Hannah GILBART married William BLEWETT on May 14 1861. I don't have the certificate to confirm the father but yes, it is confusing that Francis is named as the father. As Sarah would have been 6 when her father John died then perhaps she thought Francis was her father?
I will send for that death certificate of John GILBERT in 1847 to see if it sheds any light and keep searching for the marriage of John and Elizabeth. At least now we can eliminate Francis although we still have the element of doubt because of Sarah Hannah's marriage.
Yes I do realise .... The informant is often a good source of information, the informant may well be the wife Elizabeth or I might get lucky and the informant details might say something like Francis, brother of the deceased or similar.
Cause of death can also provide clues - especially realted to occupations. Of course, this may not be the John I am looking for so if the informant says wife Mary for example then I will know it is not him.
I've been looking for Francis in the 1841 census returns and not had much luck. I have found a baptism in the Helston district by the Wesleyan circuit so this may be a lead. I'm now looking in the Breage area for him.
Another point of interest is that Elizabeth, wife of John was born in Ludgvan according to the 1851 census however I've found no baptism or marriage there. This could of course be a mistake on the census return. I'll keep digging.
Hi, I have just picked up on this site & may be able to throw some light on Thomas Gilbart. I suspect that he was the Thomas Gilbart who migrated to Australia sailing from Plymouth 28/12/48 on the "Julindur" arriving Port Jackson 4/4/1849, along with his second wife & 3 children, 2 of them Emily & John , from his first marriage. Emily & John appear in the 1841 census of St Erth living with John & Elizabeth. They are the right age for TG's children & are "tacked on" at the end of the household. Thomas himself appears as a blacksmith [ his trade] in 1841 living with Tobias Ingram in Phillack, as a widowed man might do to earn his living while relatives cared for the children. I am unable to find TG's 1st wife Mary's death but it would be 1835 or laterafter Emily's birth. TG was the son of Thomas and Marjory; both parents were deceased at the time of his sailing, and I have not been able to identify them. I do not know the link between Thomas and John
Post by Cornish Terrier on Dec 10, 2007 12:03:55 GMT -5
Welcome Aboard my friend and thankyou for this input.
From what you have posted here I have now found the following:-
Thomas GILBERT m. Mary BROWN 20th November 1830 at Phillack
Thomas GILBART bp. Phillack 3rd March 1833 s/o Thomas and Mary John GILBART bp. Phillack 5th April 1835 s/o Thomas and Mary Emily GILBART bp. Phillack 5th April 1835 s/o Thomas and Mary Thomas GILBART bp. Phillack 1st January 1839 s/o Thomas and Mary
The first Thomas appears to have been buried at Phillack 9th June 1836 (of Ventonlege) but I cannot find a burial for the second and nor can I, so far, find a burial for Mary.
As for the emigration to Australia - you mentioned a third child, presumably from the second marriage, and I am under the assumption at this point in time that the child would have been Thomas Baron Gilbart who was born and baptised at St Erth in 1847.
I will leave it at that for now and try to get back to this thread in the coming days when I might be a little less confused.
Hope it is of help and let us see how we go from here.
Hi Ian, My wife Sandy[ Sandra Therese] is the daughter b 1951 of Arthur Lyle Gilbert [sic] born 2/11/1919 in Young Australia,grand-dau of Thomas William Frederick Gilbert b 9/9/1885 Tumut Aust. & g/grand-dau. of Thomas Aaron Gilbert b 11/1/1847 St. Erth. T A Gilbert was the son of Thomas Gilbart [sic] b 1806 Illogan & his second wife Elizabeth Martin b 28/12/1801 St Kervene. They married 28/9/1844 St Erth. TG was a widowed, she a spinster. EM was the dau of George & Mary. I have 3 children of the 1st marriage : Thomas bp 3/3/1833 John bp 30/12/1833 & Emily bp 1835. I did not have the son Thomas b 1839. Perhaps Mary & son died in childbirth, as Thomas snr was a widower by the 1841 census. The eldest Thomas, the father of TGilbart b 1806 is referred to in his sons marriage cert as Gilbert , [again,] an husbandsman, with wife Marjory . I can trace most of the descendants of Thomas Aaron [ or Aron] . Emily married in NSW. I have not traced her offspring past the first generation.Of her brother John I can find no trace. Bruce
Ian, It is Thomas Aaron on his birth certificate, Thomas A. on his marriage certificate and Thomas Aaron on his death certificate. He was Thomas a. on the ships manifest when he migrated. So where the name came from Bruce