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Post by donne on May 21, 2023 14:36:59 GMT -5
That's a timely reminder, CT, not to draw conclusions from ambiguous evidence. In this case the description 'John KITT, junior' comes from the record of the baptism of John KITT's son, William. However the real evidence for the family relationship comes from John KITT's will of 1689/1690 in which he names 'John KITT my father' as one of the executors, with son William as one of the beneficiaries.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 22, 2023 0:27:32 GMT -5
That is one of those things that I need to keep reminding myself of from time to time as well Roger. It is very much like dealing with the difference between the Julian and Gregorian Calendars and the consequences of forgetting to do so. CT
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Post by trencrom on May 24, 2023 8:14:44 GMT -5
Re the phrase "brother-in-law" in wills of the 1600s: I have seen a Cornish will from the 1650s which referred to a "son-in-law" and a "daughter-in-law" who were in fact instead stepchildren of the testator. Could a "brother-in-law" at that time, in addition to the obvious modern meaning, therefore possibly be a term for a stepbrother? Can't say that I immediately recall seeing any instances of this though.
Trencrom
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 25, 2023 1:51:55 GMT -5
There are also a number of Wills from the 18th Century and some even in the early 19th Century I have seen wherein the testator referred to son-in-law and daughter-in-law in exactly the same manner when they were in fact step-children. You will find this a lot in the Census records as well!
I think there were certainly times where many of these terms were used rather loosely (to say the least!). To a large degree we have to completely set aside modern ideas of relationships and open up our minds a little more when trying to determine relationships in old Wills.
CT
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Post by cledry on May 25, 2023 4:22:16 GMT -5
Hi Roger, you could be correct about the brother in law. Arthur MABB left a will so that is worth looking at. It was staring me in the face. John KITT was married to Thomasin MABB on 2 NOV 1682 at Ludgvan.
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Post by cledry on May 27, 2023 7:55:00 GMT -5
Interestingly Henry KITT the rector of Gulvall who is mentioned as "my kinsman" in the will of John KITT, was apparently from Stowford in Devon. There is also a marriage entry in the Ludgvan registers "Richard SCADDAN to Joan COSTEN of Penzance, at Stowford in Devonshire 23 OCT 1647 by Mr. Roger Ashton".
Would it be too much of a stretch to look for John KITT as also hailing from Stowford, and could that be why we are not finding his burial in Ludgvan? I am wondering if some of the names that suddenly appear at Ludgvan and neighbouring parishes arrived from a single area around the same time.
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Post by donne on May 27, 2023 12:48:57 GMT -5
Would it be too much of a stretch to look for John KITT as also hailing from Stowford, and could that be why we are not finding his burial in Ludgvan? I am wondering if some of the names that suddenly appear at Ludgvan and neighbouring parishes arrived from a single area around the same time. You certainly seem to have found a Stowford connection but I think that the simplest answer to the lack of a Ludgvan burial record is that it just hasn't survived. If you look at all Ludgvan burial transcripts on the OPC site for the period 1600 to 1700 you will see that there are 263 records, some of course being the same burial transcribed from different sources. However, you will see that no burials at all are shown for the period 1636 to 1666 which is just the time, between 1646 and 1653, when we would expect John KITT's death to have occurred. I know it's frustrating but I suppose any legible PR/BT survival from this period is a matter of good fortune.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 28, 2023 2:50:13 GMT -5
In general that is quite correct however in the case of Ludgvan the registers do actually survive, largely intact, from 1563 onwards!! It is just a matter of no transcriber having transcribed more than perhaps some BTs for the earlier period.
I have just had a look through the period 1646 to 1653 and cannot find a record for John Kitt but I should point out that while most records did survive there are entries on these pages that are no longer legible and it also appears there is one page that may have been missed during filming. For the most part however these early Ludgvan records are quite good.
These images can be all freely viewed via the Cornwall Parish Register collection on FamilySearch.
CT
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Post by donne on May 28, 2023 4:19:17 GMT -5
Yes, you are quite right, CT. I now see that there is a lot of information in the Ludgvan PRs which could yet be extracted and transcribed, though it would be difficult on the old eyes! Unfortunately there is little help to be had from the Exeter BTs which seem to be very patchy whereas the Bodmin BTs don't seem to start until 1674.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 28, 2023 12:09:06 GMT -5
Most of the Bodmin BTs commence around the early 1670s and generally cover up to around 1771-1774. The one period of exception, for reasons unknown to me, is that covering the years 1737-1740. Except for 'perhaps' Parishes in the Deanery of St Buryan I don't think you will find the years 1737-1740 in any of the Bodmin BTs for any Parish. Likewise, it is unlikely you will find any BTs covered in the Bodmin records in the Exeter BTs. They do seem generally to be mutually exclusive to the point where, should you wish to look at them, the 1737-1740 BTs which do not appear in Bodmin records are amost certain to be found in the Exeter records! Exeter records start much earlier and, where they still exist, can be found from as early as the 1570s/80s in some Parishes although mostly they will commence sometime from around 1595 to around 1620. Another thing of note is that I do not know of any BTs at all from the period of the Commonwealth! Also of note regarding the Commonwealth period is that I have seen very, very few Parishes with records from that period either. Gulval, Gwinear, Phillack, St Erth and Ludgvan are West Penwith Parishes that do have surviving records from that period with much of those records being reasonably legible. There may be other Parishes with at least partial records surviving but for many Parishes we are fortunate if anything at all survives in readable condition prior to 1700. CT
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Post by donne on May 29, 2023 4:55:40 GMT -5
Hello again, Cledry. I wondered if you had come across this entry in The National Archives Discovery catalogue discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5725029 which describes litigation in the Court of Chancery with plaintiffs John KITT and wife Alice KITT and defendant William MARTEN. The description states: Short title: Kitt v Marten. Plaintiffs: John Kitt and Alice Kitt his wife. Defendants: William Marten. Subject: land in Respeits, in Ludgvan, Cornwall. It dates to the period 1603-1625 but the land in question looks very much like the tenement named in the 1653 will. I have also found mention on the web of John KITT marrying an Alice TREDINICK. No source quoted though the Chancery proceedings do lend some credence to that. Unfortunately the Chancery document hasn't been digitised for download, but could be interesting if a visit to Kew were possible. I don't know if you are already aware of this - forgive me if this is a furrow you have already ploughed!
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Post by cledry on May 29, 2023 5:23:36 GMT -5
Thanks for this. I wasn't yet aware of this. I have only just started on this line.
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Post by cledry on May 29, 2023 20:00:02 GMT -5
Hello again, Cledry. I wondered if you had come across this entry in The National Archives Discovery catalogue discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5725029 which describes litigation in the Court of Chancery with plaintiffs John KITT and wife Alice KITT and defendant William MARTEN. The description states: Short title: Kitt v Marten. Plaintiffs: John Kitt and Alice Kitt his wife. Defendants: William Marten. Subject: land in Respeits, in Ludgvan, Cornwall. It dates to the period 1603-1625 but the land in question looks very much like the tenement named in the 1653 will. I have also found mention on the web of John KITT marrying an Alice TREDINICK. No source quoted though the Chancery proceedings do lend some credence to that. Unfortunately the Chancery document hasn't been digitised for download, but could be interesting if a visit to Kew were possible. I don't know if you are already aware of this - forgive me if this is a furrow you have already ploughed!
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Post by cledry on May 29, 2023 20:06:44 GMT -5
The Chancery Proceeding transcript has been attached to my previous post. It does connect the KITT line to Stowford, also the name of John KITT's wife Alice is connected to the correct TREDINNECK als SPARNAN family.
Earlier today I was reading the will of a Mychell TREDYNACK of Ludgvan, or rather trying to read it. AP/T/101 It mentions wife Elyzabeth and brother-in-law Wylliam MARTYN!
So now we are making progress!
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