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Post by donne on Feb 21, 2023 15:35:24 GMT -5
I’m looking for some background information about the CLEMENTS/CLEMENCE/CLEMENS family of St. Buryan circa 1680-1720. I have made some tentative links between this family and that of William DUNN/ Priscilla ROBERTS who were baptising children at St. Erth over the period 1690 to 1711 (look for variant spelling of DONNE). I'm now beginning to wonder about these links given the distance between St. Buryan and St. Erth. I believe that William and Priscilla baptised a son William 8 Jul 1692 at St.Erth (unfortunately the register only records father’s name). I have assumed that this son is the William DONE who married Margery CLEMENTS at St. Buryan on 3 Jan 1714 (Old Style) – a Margery DUNNE of St. Erth was later granted an admon for the estate of her deceased husband William DUNNE the younger on 13 May 1736. There is a second supposed link between the daughter Ann of William and Priscilla who was baptised at St. Erth on 21 Oct 1694 who possibly married William CLEMENTS, also on 3 Jan 1714. I have looked at the 1724 will of John CLEMENS of St. Buryan, DSB/130, which mentions sons Thomas (executor), John, William and James together with daughters Mary, married to Richard ROBERTS, and Marjery, married to William DUNN. I see that John CLEMENS was a mason so may have moved around in pursuit of his trade, baptising children in St. Buryan and St Just-in-Penwith, but no evidence of a St. Erth connection. The John CLEMENS will may be viewed at www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D4Q9-KHP?i=1359&cat=301539 . I note that one of the witnesses to the will and who actually signs his name is a John HARVEY, which may be of interest to HARVEY watchers. Judging by the style of his signature, I would guess that John HARVEY actually drafted the will for signature. Any thoughts or views very welcome. |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 21, 2023 19:59:32 GMT -5
Hi Roger - don't be concerned about the amount of ground between St Buryan and St Erth.  John Curnow (bp. 1697 Ludgvan) married Sarah Weymouth at St Buryan in 1727 and Prudence Trewhella (1698 Towednack) married Bernard Cock at Sancreed in 1726 - just two examples of reasonably early interraction between St Buryan and parts farther East. I believe there are also early connections between the Berryman families of St Buryan and Crowan. I do not appear to have the marriage of William Dunn and Margery in my database at the moment but will try and follow up later on tonight and see if I can find anything of interest. CT |
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Post by zibetha on Feb 21, 2023 20:26:01 GMT -5
Greetings, Roger, As you know, I am working on Martin Harvey and his wife was Wilmot Clemence, daughter of Christopher Clemence and Elizabeth Arthur. It looks to me that most of the family goes back to a Philippe/Philip Clemence, and I wish I could find that reference again. When I can't place people but want to remember, I plunk them on a spreadsheet. For your Margery all I have assembled is a brief sketch: Thomas Clemence and wife Barbary, children Ralph 1654, Ann 1657 and John 1660 John 1660 and Alice, children Mary, Thomas, Thomas, Margery, William Margery 1688 William 1694 Margery and William both married to Dunns? For what it's worth, my Clemence line is DNA confirmed. and I owe you a pint and a pasty for your time reading this  Zib |
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Post by donne on Feb 22, 2023 16:36:52 GMT -5
Thank you, CT and Zib, I'm pleased that my theory hasn't been straight away kicked into touch. I don't have a CLEMENTS line though the immediate offspring of the two DUN/CLEMENTS marriages would by my 1st cousins 5 times removed! Thanks, Zib, for the contents of your 'to do' list regarding the CLEMENTS of St. Buryan. I see that you include two baptisms of a Thomas - I had only picked up the first and his subsequent burial which was a problem on reading the John CELEMENS 1724 Will which named a Thomas as executor and presumably the eldest son. The Will actually names 3 sons in addition to Thomas - John, William and James. I haven't found John's baptism, which you mention, whereas James, who wasn't on your list, was actually baptised in St. Just-in-Penwith. Greetings, Roger, For what it's worth, my Clemence line is DNA confirmed. and I owe you a pint and a pasty for your time reading this Zib Well, Zib, I'm never one to refuse a pint however undeserved, so make mine a virtual 'Proper Job' from St. Austell Brewery - other brands of real ale are, of course, available |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 23, 2023 4:43:36 GMT -5
Do they still produce Hicks Special Draught - that was one I took a liking to (alongside some Scrumpy of course!!) when I was over there!  Re the Clements family - Zib, would I be correct in assuming your second baptism for Thomas (son of John and Alice) is the one at Sancreed in 1701 where the mother's name is not recorded? If so (and unless there is another) then I need to throw this one into the mix for a reaction:- Sancreed BTs 1681-1772 1696 Ralph ye son of Jo: Clemens bapd. Janry. 25
Aside from the first character of the forename the father's name is not clear in the Parish Register but what I can read is Ralph ye son of J__ Clemens & Alice Jan 25I have checked and can find no other 'J' 'Cl' married to anyone named 'Al' in the relevant time frame but I did find 'Ralph son of Jo. Clemens' buried 26th January 1696 at Sancreed. It would appear you have another son to add to the family. CT |
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Post by donne on Feb 23, 2023 12:57:21 GMT -5
CT, I've never come across Hicks Special Draught  , maybe too good to export outside Cornwall! This CLEMENTS family certainly seem to have moved around a lot, so interaction with families in other parishes certainly seems likely. I have found an interesting reference in the TNA's Discovery catalogue (unfortunately not digitsed) as follows: Short title: Clements v Gendall. Plaintiffs: John Clements and Alice Clements his wife. Defendants: Margaret...
Court of Chancery: Six Clerks Office: Pleadings before 1714, Hamilton. Short title: Clements v Gendall. Plaintiffs: John Clements and Alice Clements his wife. Defendants: Margaret Gendall and another. Place or subject: money, Cornwall. Document type: bill only.
Held by: The National Archives, Kew - Chancery, the Wardrobe, Royal Household, Exchequer and various commissions
Date: 1697
Reference: C 7/60/47
Subjects: Litigation
Thinking it might be a family dispute, I wondered if Alice CLEMENTS could have been born a GENDALL and I did find the following entry in the OPC database for St. Buryan: Allse GENDAL bap. 19 Dec 1659, parents Arthur and Margret/ Marget I also note that an Ann GENDALL makes her mark as witness to the 1724 John CLEMENS will. It's my guess that a GENDALL family connection is likely, but it's all very circumstantial evidence without sight of the contents of the Chancery Court proceedings. Subsequent addition after I found the will of Arthur GENDALL 1690 (AP/G/1023). I haven't read it yet in detail yet but it certainly mentions daughter Alce, wife of John CLEMENCE who receives a bequest of five pounds |
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Post by spikeharwood on Feb 23, 2023 15:04:57 GMT -5
Do they still produce Hicks Special Draught - that was one I took a liking to (alongside some Scrumpy of course!!) when I was over there! CT LOL. They were still making it in 2018 when we were there. We knew it only as HSD but called it High Speed Death. It was almost black and you could probably stand a spoon up in a glass of it. Was all we drank. Yum! |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 23, 2023 21:29:08 GMT -5
 It was called HSD (High Speed Death) when I was there back in 1994 as well!  Many a pint lubricated my parched throat at the Tinner's Arms at Zennor! CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 24, 2023 4:39:52 GMT -5
I also now have a copy of the Will of Arthur Gendall of St Just 1691 and the very first bequest brings up what I think is a probable 'error' or, at the very least, 'misreading' of original documents on the part of W Treffry Hoblyn. In no way do I place any blame on Mr Hoblyn for this because I have no idea of the state of the particular page of the St Buryan Parish Register when he was compiling his transcript. But I do have a good idea what that page looks like now having just spent a little time trying to manipulate the image in the hope of being able to read it myself!  Nevertheless - the first bequest of Arthur Gendall is to 'Thomas Gendall my eldest son' and, of course, there is no baptism to be found for Thomas son of Arthur Gendall no matter which way you try to manipulate the spelling of the names. However, Hoblyn did transcribe an entry in 1656 for the baptism of a Thomas Gendall whose father he interpreted as 'Phillip'. Having just tried a 'person search' of the OPC database for p%l g%nd%l I can tell you that the name of 'Phillip' Gendall does not appear until 1793 when a man of that name was married at St Gluvias. The entry in the Parish Register is now, at least as far as the image is concerned, totally illegible but based on the above-mentioned search I would suggest that Hoblyn also had a difficult time and in the end transcribed what he believed he could make of the father's name as Philip when perhaps it should have been Arthur. (for my part I cannot even make out a single letter of the child's name let alone anything else!!  ) Arthur Gendall and Margarett Niccall were married at St Buryan 24th February 1654/5 and the first baptism I had been able to find prior to now was that of daughter Alice 19th December 1659. I think it reasonably safe to assume that eldest son Thomas is the child transcribed as 'son of Philip' baptised at St Buryan in 1656. Unfortunately the actual date is also illegible but this baptism is the last but one for the year 1656/7 and that final baptism was dated January 12th. CT |
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Post by donne on Feb 25, 2023 8:00:02 GMT -5
I also now have a copy of the Will of Arthur Gendall of St Just 1691 and the very first bequest brings up what I think is a probable 'error' or, at the very least, 'misreading' of original documents on the part of W Treffry Hoblyn. In no way do I place any blame on Mr Hoblyn for this because I have no idea of the state of the particular page of the St Buryan Parish Register when he was compiling his transcript. But I do have a good idea what that page looks like now having just spent a little time trying to manipulate the image in the hope of being able to read it myself! CT The first few images of the St. Buryan register look lost to me, and having struggled with damaged pages myself, my sympathies are very much with the transcriber! It's rather worrying though that the OPC database has a second entry for this questionable birth, presumably based on a later reading of the register, which repeats Mr. Hoblyn's reading of the father's name. If we stick with the Arthur Gendall Will signed 28 August 1690, he lists, in addition to the eldest son Thomas, Stephen, Arthur and James who are bequeathed an interest in a lease, and two further sons Anthonie and John, who each receive sum of money in lieu of an interest in the land. Two daughters are mentioned, Allse wife of John Clemence, and Frances wife of Richard Roberts. Wife Margret is appointed executrix. The tenement named in the Will seems to be something like Bejeugan? but I can't find anything like that name in St. Just. It would seem that the Chancery proceedings I noted, in which John and Allse CLEMENCE sue a Margret GENDALL would be in some way to do with the payment of the bequest of five pounds which Allse CLEMENTS received in her father's Will. |
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Post by londoner on Feb 25, 2023 8:36:05 GMT -5
The tenement named in the Will seems to be something like Bejeugan? but I can't find anything like that name in St. Just. Most Likely Bowjewyan between Morvah and Pendeen |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 25, 2023 10:10:51 GMT -5
I had thought that second entry was the work of the OPC but I simply cannot see how anything can be made of the entry based on the FamilySearch image I have been working on. There is no indication in the FamilySearch catalogue that there is any other film of this register so my understanding is that we have been viewing the only alternatives. (Other than perhaps getting a look at the original register at Kresen Kernow but I very much doubt that would be permitted these days!) My comments of yesterday regarding a search for Philip Gendall entries is the only other 'evidence' I have to offer. And from that I am sticking with Arthur as the father. CT |
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Post by donne on Feb 26, 2023 4:17:28 GMT -5
Thanks for Bowjewyan. That would be it - I misread the 'y' for a 'g'.
I have now found an entry in the Kresen Kernow catalogue which contains a description of the part of Bowjewyan held by Stephen Gendall, son of Arthur, as follows:
Reference: WH/1/2177
Description:
99 yr. lease (lessee, s. Arthur and dau. Ann); rent 30/-.
Margt. Paynter of Trelissick, wid., to Stephen Gendall of St. Just-in-Penwith, yeo.
Consideration: £100.
Part of tenement called Bojewyan, being the kitchen, chamber over, and dairy; lower Park-an-Chappell and moiety of Park-an-Chappell lying next to townplace; moiety of croft called Goonhaweis downs, and ¼ part of commons in Bojewyan, hedged in at Arthur Gendall's expense, with moiety of right to waste ground called the Rose, and moiety of mowhay, gdns., barn, townplace and sheepfold with common of pasture, furze and turbary on Bojewyan commons.
Date: 5 Nov. 1723
Held by: Archives and Cornish Studies Service (formerly Cornwall Record Office), not available at The National Archives
Language: English
The lease was granted by Margaret Paynter of Trelissick Manor in St. Erth (NOT of the more famous Trelissick House in Feock)
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, maybe too good to export outside Cornwall!
It was called HSD (High Speed Death) when I was there back in 1994 as well! 
Many a pint lubricated my parched throat at the Tinner's Arms at Zennor! 
)