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Post by chrisdearnley on Jan 21, 2023 5:06:20 GMT -5
Hi CT,
Sorry about the delay in responding. So glad your dinner of the other day was saved! By the look of things, other dinners may have run the same risk!
Thank you SO much for spending your time on this. Your reasoning is logical and really interesting. If this turns out to be the case, I have Devon blood on both sides of my Cornish family. (On my maternal side, my Gt Grandmother came from High Bickington in Devon.)
I shall now spend some time following your trail but in the meantime, just wanted to acknowledge your considerable efforts!
Cheers,
Chris
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Post by chrisdearnley on Jan 21, 2023 5:33:37 GMT -5
Re your question about priorities, I try move back across both sides of the generations (a lot easier said than done!) and when I got to' 1821 George', stumbled a bit, hence my initial posting! I hadn't really got to exploring the Berryman side, although that would have been my next logical step. Your considerable work on this will be really helpful. Unfortunately therefore, I am unable to offer much support in sharing the results of my own investigations on this side...yet!
As is the case with family history, the last couple of days has seen me dive into a rabbit hole on my maternal side - Collick and Piper - as a result of a question I was asked by someone in the family. I won't bore you with the details, save to say it turned up a lot more than I had bargained for, resulting in a telephone conversation yesterday afternoon with a second cousin a couple of times removed, in Newtown, Germoe! Turns out we have much in common, notwithstanding the fact that we share Gt Gt Grandparents! My wife and I are travelling to Cornwall (from Yorkshire) in May, to walk some more of the South West Coastal Path. (A few years ago we covered Zennor to Mullion.) This time we will start at Mullion and continue round The Lizard and up to the Helford River, so we are going to meet up with my new found relative and exchange notes!
Chris
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Post by chrisdearnley on Jan 21, 2023 7:43:11 GMT -5
Re your comment...whilst Catherine (Katherine, Kitty, Christian) was supposedly born at Madron around 1795/6. I have searched the Madron Baptism Register: www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XCT7-G1W?i=37&wc=3CB8-824%3A138123201%2C140336001%2C1582884504&cc=176941 from 1795 onwards. There is an entry on 29th July 1799 for Christian, daughter of Christian Rowe. I wonder... Re...George Uren of Towednack and Catherine Rowe, who were married at Madron 24th January 1818, it looks as though George signed the register himself, while Catherine made her mark: www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XC43-MSL?i=55&wc=3CB8-ZN5%3A138123201%2C140336001%2C140379601&cc=1769414 Quite an achievement for someone with a pauper's baptism, George's son was not able to sign his own name when he married in 1845, nor was Mary Berryman. The 1841 census has a George and Catherine Uren with several children, one of whom is a daughter called Christian, born 1826 and a daughter called, Catherine, born in 1832: Census Transcript Family Cornwall 1841 Address New Street Parish Madron Registration District Penzance & Redruth Image Reference HO107 PN:0143 BN:4 FN:? Page:240 Found 9 Results. Forename Surname Age Year Born Birth Place Occupation George Uren 40 1801 Labourer (He answered 'Yes' to the question, "Whether born in the same County") Catherine Uren 40 1801 Peggy Uren 20 1821 Christian Uren 15 1826 Thomas Uren 14 1827 Isabella Uren 13 1828 Ann Uren 11 1830 Catherine Uren 9 1832 Mary Uren 5 1836
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 21, 2023 11:30:11 GMT -5
I am keeping an open mind at the moment regarding the identity of Catherine Rowe. The Christian Rowe you mention 'could' be a possibility but she was baptised in 1799 as you say whereas Catherine's age in 1851 and 1861 suggests she was born around 1795. Christian and Catherine are often interchangeable but it is not unusual to find both names used in a family. Similarly with 'Jane' and 'Jenifer'. What has me intrigued now is the 1841 Census. I had not taken a close look at it before reading your post and I now see there are five children in the household for whom I cannot find baptisms!! And also there is no sign of son John amongst those children but then he could have been apprenticed at the time given his occupation in 1851 was a butcher. Not the first time I have come across this problem of missing baptisms but ............... Guess that gives me one more dilemma to deal with!! CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 23, 2023 21:47:24 GMT -5
I have tried again but unfortunately I have had absolutely no success at all in finding a marriage for John Berryman and Sarah. I am pretty sure now that I have been able to rule out all the potential marriages already mentioned from Somerset, Gloucestershire and Devon with multiple children from each being easily found via FamilySearch records for Devon and Ancestry records for Somerset and Gloucestershire. The only other potential place of marriage might be Ireland but in the Irish records I have access to I have also not been able to find anything useful. Another hurdle to cross is finding a death or burial record for John Berryman. From the baptisms of his children and the remarriage of Sarah as a widow suggests his death should be sometime between 1830 and October 1836. (I chose 1830 as a starting point because daughter Sarah was baptised 10th July 1831 so even if her baptism was delayed then John still had to be around during the latter half of 1830) Without some idea of his age it is extremely difficult to try and identify John and even though he was at Penzance and West Cornwall was rife with Berrymans there can be no absolute guarantee that he was born in Cornwall. CT
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Post by chrisdearnley on Jan 29, 2023 16:33:53 GMT -5
Thanks again CT for all your efforts!
I know what you mean about all those Berrymans - and so many have similar names! On the maternal side of my Cornish roots, a Mary Jane Berryman married William Henry Collick in 1860. Would you happen to know if Mary/Amelia Berryman, who married George Uren in 1845 and Mary Jane Berryman, who married William Henry Collick in the Mar quarter 1860 (Penzance 5c 505), are related in some way? Would be interesting if so...!
Cheers,
Chris
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 29, 2023 23:02:56 GMT -5
Hi Chris - the answer to that question has to be 'no' I don't know for the simple reason that I have not been able to identify Amelia's father John Berryman and where he might fit into the picture.
No marriage record for John Berryman and wife Sarah has yet been found so we do not know the names of the witnesses who may or may not have provided a clue. And perhaps more critically no identifiable record of death or burial for John Berryman has yet been found so we have no record of his age that might have helped at least narrow the field.
If John was a Cornish born Berryman then there it is certainly possible the two girls you mentioned may have been related but...............
What I can tell you is that I believe the wife of William Collick to have been baptised at Towednack in 1840 to parents John Berryman and his first wife Mary Ann Kenifeck who were married at Madron in 1837. From previous research I believe John was the son of Nicholas Berryman and Elizabeth Arthur of Towednack. His second wife was Elizabeth Stevens (nee Penberthy) whom he married at Towednack in 1852 but I do not yet know what became of John. At the 1861 Census Elizabeth was recorded as a widow.
CT
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