Uren and Collick

[chrisdearnley]

Hello...!

I am a new member whose maternal side is rooted in Cornwall, namely Uren and Collick. I have traced the Uren side as far back as George Uren, born in St Just in 1821. George appears on the 1841 Census in Custom House Lane, Penzance, as a Shoe Maker, a profession he carries on throughout his life. He married Amelia, born 1823, and they had 10 children. I don't know Amelia's maiden name, their marriage date, nor can I get further back than George and Amelia. If anyone has information about any of their forbears that would be brilliant!

Re the Collick side, I have seen various threads about the numerous Hugh Collicks and also about the 'Hosking' issue(!) and the association with Collett, Collect etc. The 1745 Hugh, who married Elizabeth Johns, is as far back as I have been able to go thus far. Again, if any member can help with generations further back, this would be gratefully received!

I will be happy to share any information I have...

Best regards,

Chris

[spikeharwood]

Hi Chris and welcome to the forum. CT will be along shortly and he may well have George and Amelia in his database. In the meantime, a search at Cornish Online Parish Clerk gives five children of George and Amelia baptised between 1857 and 1868. Three of them were baptised 27 Feb 1857 Penzance Chapelry, Madron including Sarah Anne aged 7 and William George aged 3. If we then look up GRO for birth registrations for these children in 1850 and 1854 (+/-2) we find mother's maiden name is Berryman/Berriman.
I have Uren way back but none of your other names are in my direct lines. Will have a poke in my trees later to see if those names make an appearance.
Cheers
Spike

[malphillips1]

I think it is possible that Amelia may have also been known as Mary.

Mary Berryman married George Uren in the Madron area in Jan 1845 (according to the Cornwall Online Parish Clerks Database).

George was 24 at the time, and a shoemaker living in Penzance. Mary was 21.

The GRO index for the birth of William George Uren (in Q3 1854) gives his mother's maiden name as Berriman.

The GRO index for the birth of Sarah Ann Uren (in Q2 1849) gives her mother's maiden name as Berryman

The GRO index for the birth of Agnes Uren (in Q4 1859) gives her mother's maiden name as Berryman.

There is a possible baptism for Amelia/Mary in Jul 1824 - and this time she's called Amelia (!) d/o John and Sarah, father a cabinet maker.

I notice that Amelia/Mary's father, named at her marriage was John Berryman a carpenter.

[malphillips1]

Just spotted that you don't know the marriage date.

If this was indeed a marriage for Mary Berryman and George Uren it was on the 15th of January 1845.

If you have an Ancestry account the parish register page is scanned and available online.

Neither George nor Mary appear to have been able to write - so both left their 'signs' on the marriage record.

[chrisdearnley]

Spike and malphillips1... Thanks so much for your warm welcome and your posts! I have pondered over Mary Berriman but couldn't tie this in with Amelia. The other information you have sent though, together with the various dates, does make this a very strong possibility! Thanks again. Really appreciate your speedy support!
Chris

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Chris and Welcome to Penwith Genealogy1

Sorry to be a little slow in responding and also for what might appear to be a very quick and short reply but the fire season is beginning here in Victoria and my brigade has been really busy over the last few days firstly with fires and then with a storm that came through dumping hail and rain and bringing power lines down!

So for now I can offer the following.

I do indeed have George and Amelia in my database although I as yet I have not identified George Uren. (will have a quick look before I close.)

Madron Parish Church
15th January 1845
George Uren age 24 bachelor shoemaker of Penzance son of George Uren labourer
Mary Berryman age 21 spinster of Penzance daughter of John Berryman carpenter
by Banns
Witnesses:- William Anthony, Phillipa Rowe, T:Read (this was Tobias Read the Parish Clerk)

Neither bride nor groom could sign their own names so made their marks instead.

The last time I looked at this family was way back in 2011 so I will need to do some further research but at the moment I belive Amelia to have been the following-

Amelia daughter of John and Sarah Berryman of Penzance (father cabinet maker) baptised 18th July 1824 at Penzance

At first glance the parents of Amelia 'appear' to be John Berriman of Towednack and Sarah Ninnis who married at Ludgvan in 1802 but I do have them in my database and as Sarah was baptised in 1765 she would have been age 59 at the time of Amelia's baptism and therefore much, much, much too old!!!

But looking at the Penzance baptism register I see a baptism in 1821 for a John Sainthill Berryman son of John and Sarah. The father, John Berryman, was a cabinet maker so undoubtedly the father of Amelia so there is a possibility that he married out of Cornwall.

Now that I have looked more closely at my database I see that Sarah must have been widowed as she appears to have remarried at Madron in 1836 to a John Downing who had been born at Paul around 1787. From the 1871 Census Sarah appears to have been born at Bristol around 1802.

John and Sarah Berryman had a few children but one of interest is son William who was baptised at Penzance in 1829 but apparently born in London about 1826.

I have now found two possibilities for the marriage of John and Sarah Berryman:-

1. John Berriman and Sarah Herniman married by Banns at Crowcombe, Somerset 26th April 1818
2. John Buryman and Sarah Beachman married at Midsomer North, Somerset 19th October 1819 (I can't get a look at this one yet as it appears only available on FindMyPast)

I am not comfortable with either as yet so please treat this information only as 'possible'.

I really don't have any more time now but if you respond to this post so that it will be highlighted at my end it will serve as a reminder to try and delve further into this problem over the next few days.

I cannot guarantee quick responses at this stage but I will certainly do my best to help solve your problem especially as the Berryman/Berriman family is one that has connections with my own.

Just before I finish - George Uren was supposedly born at Lelant about 1820 but I suspect he 'may' be the George son of George and Catherine Uren baptised at Sancreed 30th May 1819.

CT

[chrisdearnley]

Wow CT...thanks so much for your warm welcome and your very detailed response! I didn't realise you were based on the other side of the world!

Having visited the site on several occasions before becoming a member, I have been in awe of your knowledge and 'feel' for so many separate strands of members' historical families, now including my own! Your findings are really interesting - I did see some of the string way back in 2011 and this is a great summary. I wondered myself about the Sancreed George. The 1861 census has George Uren (married to Amelia) born in St Just, so Sancreed seems the more likely option.

Other Sancreed baptisms around that time with George and Catherine as parents:

1819 Sancreed George UREN Parents: George Catherine 
1822 Sancreed Richard UREN Parents: George Catherine
1824 Sancreed Christiana UREN Parents: George Catherine
1825 Sancreed Thomas UREN Parents: George Catherine

I absolutely understand the time constraints under which you are operating and will wait patiently for any further response. My ancestors aren't going anywhere, any time soon!

Thanks once again!

Cheers,

Chris

[spikeharwood]

CT: Find My Past marriage records. Not sure how helpful they are

[chrisdearnley]

Interesting that on the 1851 census, Sarah Downing's occupation was 'Shoe Binder' and son William Berriman (24) born at 'St Luke's, London', was a 'Boot Maker'. There is a 'ditto' marker after William Berriman, suggesting that William may have taken his stepfather's name? I wonder if Mary Berriman, who married Shoe Maker George Uren, had similar shoemaking skills? Another occupant of the house, 46, New Street, Penzance in 1851, was Jn (Jonathan?) Uren, Grandson, aged 6, birthplace, Penzance. I don't have him in my tree at the moment...! Sarah's second husband John Downing was 63 in 1851 and a 'Mariner'.

In the house next door, 47, New Street, lived widow Betsy Berriman, aged 80, a Cordwainer's widow. Possibly Sarah's former mother-in-law? Clearly shoemaking was a family passion! Betsy was born in Towednack (until 1902, in the Chapelry of Lelant). Living with Betsy was her daughter, also Betsy Berriman (40), unmarried, also born in Towednack. The other occupant of 47, New Street was a lodger, Thos Stronger?, the writing is unclear, who was a widower aged 62, occupation 'Traveller', born in Suffolk.

I have just checked the 1861 census and this has thrown up names and dates which require further investigation!

Census Transcript Household Cornwall 1861
Address New Street
Parish Penzance
Registration District Penzance

ForenameSurname Age Year Born Relation Birth Place Occupation

John Downing 73 1788 Head Paul, Cornwall Mariner M S
Sarah Downing 58 1803 Wife Bristol Boot Binder
Mary Berriman 26 1835 Daughter In Law Marazion, Cornwall Tailoress
John Uren 16 1845 Grand Son Penzance, Cornwall Shoe Maker
Amelia Berriman 7 1854 Grand Daughter Penzance, Cornwall Scholar
William Berriman 4 1857 Grand Son Penzance, Cornwall Scholar

Apologies for the formatting. It looked OK until I pressed the button!

I had posted this last night but have gone into editing mode this morning, having looked in more detail at the 1861 entry for George Uren, 'Boot and Shoe Maker' living in 'Back of Prospect Place', Penzance - entry no.155. Entry 154, is the family of Patience Uren, Head and Widow of an Ag labourer. (He would be William Uren, born 1805 in Gulval.) Her son is William Uren, another 'Cordwainer', with 3 sisters, Mary Jane, Selina and Elizabeth. Entry 153 is the 'Marlen?' family - writing difficult to read - the youngest of whom, James (13) is also a 'Shoemaker'!

I am conscious that this post is growing longer by the minute but a final entry - for now! - is worth mentioning. After I had gone to bed - not a good move! - I thought I would try to find Jonathan Uren and in the process, came across this article, which includes a Charles Uren of Marine Place, also a shoemaker! cornishstory.com/2015/03/03/marine-place-murders-in-1886/

I have also come across Richard Uren born 1835 in Gwinear and his brother Isaiah born 1837, occupations...you've guessed it, both shoemakers!

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Spike - having looked at the images you have provided I am also not sure whether they are useful or not. The use of the name 'Sainthill' as a second forename for son John makes me very cautious about accepting either of the potential marriages I flagged.

Chris - I will have to spend a little time working my way through the information but one thing I will say is to keep an open mind when you see references to 'daughter-in-law' or 'son-in-law'. (For that matter it is worth adding Aunt, Uncle, brother-in-law and probably a few others!

The reason I mention this is because the term 'daughter-in-law' (for example) might mean just that .............. or it may indicate a step-child. That is to say that the daughter-in-law might be the child of a previously married spouse.

I cannot promise it will happen tonight but I will try and take a closer look at the Berriman Census information shortly as it may lead to some answers both on the Berryman/Berriman and Uren sides of the problem.

Re Shoemakers/Cordwainers - it almost seems at times that they were a 'dime a dozen' as they seem to pop up everywhere. In some cases the occupation runs in families with at least one son, if not sometimes more, following in the profession. In some instances you may find a shoemaker/cordwainer's family with one of many sons following his father's trade whilst others become labourers, mariners etc.
But you will also find people in the Census who are recorded as shoemakers or cordwainers but who were previously mariners of some description.

Sorry to jump backwards but I just had another quick look at your 1861 Census information and can clarify a point about daughter-in-law Mary Berryman. As John Downing was the head of the house she was not actually his daughter-in-law but rather the daughter-in-law of his wife. Mary was the then widow of Sarah Downing formerly Berryman's son William who died in 1858l She was born Mary Rosewarne and married William Berryman at Madron 13th August 1853. 'Grandchildren' William and Amelia Berryman were children of William and Mary.

I think I had best close for now otherwise I risk jumping from topic to topic and creating too much confusion.

Once I have been able to take a closer look at that 1851 Census I will hopefully be able to make a little more sense of things and, hopefully, be able to find something that might lead to the identity of John Berryman's wife.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Just put something in the oven so decided to take a quick look at that 1851 Census entry while the cooking progresses!

I think I can probably rule out any connection to the John Berryman of this query other than locational coincidence.

I have done little on this family for quite a few years but as I have it in my database at the moment the Betsy Berryman (and daughter Betsy) living next to Saray Downing at New Street Penzance in 1851 was the widow of Nicholas Berryman who was buried at Towednack 14th March 1842. At the time of burial he was 'of Penzance' as was his widow Betsy/Elizabeth when she died in 1859 at Towednack at the age of 88.

This was Nicholas Berryman and Elizabeth Arthur who married at Towednack in 1804 and daughter 'Betsy' was their daughter Elizabeth baptised at Towednack in 1810. It does seem odd that Betsy was recorded as a 'cordwainer's widow' in 1851 as in the 1841 Census (also at New Street Penzance) husband Nicholas was recorded as a 'labourer'.

Actually, if you take a look at the 1841 Census you will find John and Sarah Downing living about three doors from Nicholas and Elizabeth Berryman!

The really interesting thing about all of this is that John and Sarah Berryman named their third son 'Nicholas'!

I can see I am going to have to study this family quite a deal more to try and solve the problem. Nicholas and Elizabeth/Betsy did have a son John baptised at Towednack in 1808 but my record show he was married twice - first to Mary Ann Kenifeck at Madron in 1837 and then to Elizabeth Stevens (widow nee Penberthy) at Towednack in 1852 at which time he stated his father's name as Nicholas. But this John was a miner and his last child was baptised at Towednack in 1851 and then John himself died sometime before the 1861 Census.

If I keep going now dinner will burn so will try and return to it tomorrow and, hopefully, begin finding solutions!!

CT

[chrisdearnley]

Many thanks for your thoughts thus far CT and the further detail about the Berrymans.

Hope you caught dinner before it became a burnt offering!

Cheers,
Chris

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Chris - yes, I managed to eat without crunching charcoal!

I am trying to work on this in stops and starts and at times the 'starts' begin with a 'what about .....'

At the moment I am still concentrating more on the Berryman side because I would really like to find that marriage to Sarah and ascertain her maiden name. Consequently my little diversion tonight was a case of 'what happened to John Sainthill Berryman' and so I duly entered the search term 'John Sainthill Berryman' into Ancestry. As a result I think I have found a marriage for him!!

The result that my search elicited was an 1861 Census entry for a John Berryman living at St Andrew, Devon. His age and birthplace indicated he was born at Penzance about 1821 and that suggests almost undoubtedly that it is indeed John Sainthill Berryman. Assisting that conclusion was the fact that in 1861 this John Berryman gave his occupation as 'cordwinder'!!! (cordwainer or shoemaker)

In that Census he had a wife named Harriet whose age might be interepreted as either 30 or 50 and whose birthplace was recorded as Truro.

A search of FreeBMD offered a couple of possibilities with the most likely being a marriage in 1847 in the Stoke Damerel registration district in Devon. The potential bride in that entry was Harriet CANDY.
I checked the 1851 Census and found John Berryman at 3 Royal Oak Place Hoxton Old Town in London. His occupation was 'shoemaker' and in the same building was another shoemaker by name William Coombs along with his infant son Joseph Coombs.
A further search of the 1851 Census found a married Harriet Berryman age 23 (occupation 'shoe binder') living at Lemon Row in Kenwyn. Harriet's birthplace was Truro and she was living with her 13 year old sister Mary Ann CANDY!

This does not identify John Berryman's wife Sarah but it does give us that little bit more information on the family that might ultimately lead discovering who she was.

Harriott Ann Candy was baptised at Truro St Mary 10th September 1828 daughter of John and Elizabeth Candy. Harriet and her sister were living next door to their parents in 1851.

It appears John and Harriet Berryman had no children. In 1871 they were living at Stoke Damerel and in 1881 they can be found at Tavistock.

I might try another 'what about' a little later but right now it is time to think about food again.

I am not sure whether your priority is the Berryman or Uren side but I am concentrating on the Berryman side at the moment as I have done more work on them in the past. If I can finally identify which John Berryman is involved here it may solve some other problems I have had with that family.

But I will turn my attention to George Uren 'drekkly' as I would also like to identify him. And I am not totally convinced that he is the one baptised at Sancreed as hypothesized in my previous posts. The fact he stated he was born at Lelant has me wondering .............

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

I have just filled in a little more of the family of John and Sarah Berryman and their children. Mostly I have confied that to the baptisms burials and marriages of their children along with children of those marriages. In doing that I noticed that George Uren seemed unable to make up his mind exactly where he was born!

In 1851 George said he was born at Lelant but then in 1861 he said he was born at St Just. 10 years later in 1871 he decided his birthplace was Penzance but then in 1881 decided again that it must have been Lelant as stated 30 years earlier!!

In the absence of another clear candidate and dependant on proof to the contrary I have accepted that the 1819 baptism at Sancreed to parents George and Catherine Uren must be that of the husband of Amelia Berryman. (It is most helpful that George did name a daughter Catherine as well!

That being the case then George Uren's parents would have been George Uren of Towednack and Catherine Rowe who were married at Madron 24th January 1818.

According to the 1851 Census George Uren senior was born at Devonport about 1790 or 1792 whilst Catherine (Katherine, Kitty, Christian) was supposedly born at Madron around 1795/6.

That is going to require some more work!

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

George Uren of Union Workhouse age 80 was buried at Penzance 6th March 1872
Catherine Uren of Union Workhouse age 65 was buried at Penzance 10th December 1859

I believe these are your George and Catherine.

The nearest possibility I can find so far that might possibly be George is:-

George Chipman son of William and Mary Urne, pauper baptised 19th March 1794 Charles the Martyr, Plymouth

That would fit with George stating he was born at Devonport given Devonport is a district of Plymouth and was originally called Plymouth Dock.

CT