Penberthys of St Just

[Glazin2018]

CT et al

Just while you may still have your Penberthy file open, I have been working on those Penberthys who appear in the BDMs in St Just.

One particular item that is confusing me is Isaac Penberthy.  An Isaac Penberthy married Ann Edwards in 1656.  This Isaac, and his wife Ann died in 1709.

In 1690 Isaac junior, husband of Catherine Hall also died.  Now you would think father and son?  But in the abovementioned Isaac's Will of 1709 he refers to his son Isaac and leaving him a legacy of 50 pounds.

Do you by chance have a connection to the Isaac Penberthy junior who died in 1690?

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

I have had the family of Isaac and Ann Penberthy in my database since 1999 ................... and that is the last time anything was done with it.

However, after a few minutes looking around I think I can solve your problem.

1. The burial in 1690 was for 'Isaack Penberthy Junr.' with no reference to any family or status (e.g. whether or not a widower). That does not make a huge difference but it is certainly worth noting.
2. There were quite a number of burials at St Just in 1690 and the Vicar seems to have consistently noted to have included the names of parents where a burial was that of a child.

Now, the young Isaac to whom you refer would have been about 12 or 13 so nearing the age where he might have been considered 'adult' so point 2. above might be considered a little 'grey' but the fact remains that the Vicar does seem to have been consistent with his entries and the parents of 1677 Isaac were certainly still living.

So - to the likely solution to your problem!

From the St Just Parish Register:-

3rd November 1683 Isaack Penberthy and Katharine Hall of Madron were marryed

24th June 1692 James White and Katharine Penberthy wid. were marryed

Although there may be others the OPC database shows two potential children for Isaac and Katharine Penberthy - Elizabeth in 1688 and Grace in 1690. It is significant to this discussion that there appears to have been no other child after Grace in 1690 baptised to an Isaac Penberthy in Cornwall until 1709 at Redruth. (And not another at St Just until 1715!)

Grace was baptised 22nd November 1690 which is five months after the burial of Isaack Penberthy Jnr which would suggest she may have been a posthumous child.

Isaac Penberthy and Ann Edwards were married in 1656 and had two sons with the name Isaac - 1671 and 1677 - and neither of those would have married in 1683. So there had to have been yet another Isaac Penberthy who was labeled 'Junr' as he was the younger of the two.

The logical conclusion is that the 1690 burial of Isaac Penberthy must be that of the husband of Katharine Hall who then married James White in 1692.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Addendum - the baptism of Grace Penberthy from the St Just Parish Register actually reads as follows:-

Grace ye daughter of Isaack Penberthy deceasd was Bapt: 9br ye 22d (in the BTs the word 'deceasd' is not present)

CT

[Glazin2018]

CT

The logical conclusion is that the 1690 burial of Isaac Penberthy must be that of the husband of Katharine Hall who then married James White in 1692.

Yes you are definitely correct there. The 1690 Isaac died intestate and the Obligation was placed on Catherine Penberthy, the Relict of Isaac Penberthy deceased.  The elder Isaac who married Ann Edwards died in 1709 and there was definitely a son Isaac in his Will of 1709.  So it must be that there were at least three Isaacs in St Just at the time of the 1690 death.  Unless of course the real youngest of the three was living out of the Parish but still using St Just as his mother Parish for BDMs.

But you have interested me in something while I read your post.  

Isaac Penberthy and Ann Edwards were married in 1656 and had two sons with the name Isaac - 1671 and 1677

Am I correct is saying that the above information is not on the OPC site?  Will I need to read through the Parish register myself or is it on Family Search or such like?

I will wait to hear from you before I go any further

Lannanta

[Glazin2018]

CT

I looked on the CFHS site and the 'dead in 1690' Isaac stands out like a sore thumb - Isaac bap 5/2/1660 to Bernard (and assume mother to be Pasches OATES).  It also shows a Thomas bap 12/9/1685 therefore a potential brother to the Grace and Elizabeth you discussed before.

I think I am missing significant data so it makes the task a little more difficult.

For the moment I am surmising that the Isaac who married Ann Edwards in 1656 in St Just was a brother of Bernard who married Pasches Oates in 1656 in St Just.  If I am wrong I can break the connection later but it is allowing me to connect all the individuals together via the various Wills and such like.

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

Am I correct is saying that the above information is not on the OPC site? Will I need to read through the Parish register myself or is it on Family Search or such like?

I'm not absolutely sure but I think the only pre-1681 St Just stuff currently on the OPC site is from BTs. But I have a copy of the 1599-1681 Register which is available for viewing on FamilySearch.

I have not looked through the registers or even FamilySearched indexed entries for Penberthy's prior to Isaac although I think I do have the marriage of Bernard and Pasches in my database. It is a fair task to try and read through that early register with many pages extremely difficult to read and some probably even almost impossible. But no doubt there will be a lot of entries of interest to be found.
I may attempt to search for entries for some of the earlier family over the next few days but first I have to get my fire extinguisher servicing completed along with a couple of other fire brigade related tasks.

When I get a chance to look at these early families I will try and place some focus on the Isaac Penberthys in particular so that we can identify exactly who was who.

CT

[Glazin2018]

CT

I was wondering if I could provide you with some data I have collected over the last few weeks for you to cast your eyes over.  I have collected the earlier data from the OPC site and the CFHS site and the later data from GRO.  So far I have collected and entered that data onto a searchable spreadsheet of all the PENBERTHY baptisms/births and burials/deaths from as early as they were recorded (early 1600s) up to about 1851 or so.

But I noticed that when you quoted:

Isaac Penberthy and Ann Edwards were married in 1656 and had two sons with the name Isaac - 1671 and 1677

that I still had data missing (teh 2 Isaacs) and potentially you could add to the spreadsheet that I have.  When you have got on top of the fire work you have in front of you would you be prepared to receive a copy of my spreadsheet and add any records that I have not listed?

Lannanta

[Cornish Terrier]

When you have got on top of the fire work you have in front of you would you be prepared to receive a copy of my spreadsheet and add any records that I have not listed?

Yes, that should not be too much of a problem. We managed to complete all the extinguisher servicing on Wednesday and the paperwork is all complete and off to HQ for processing. Waiting on one more extinguisher to be delivered so that I can install it at the winery and hopefully that should be done next week.

I am presuming for the moment that you are primarily interested in St Just? If that is the case then it should be fairly easy to fill in the gaps on your spreadsheet as it appears the two 1656 marriages (Isaac and Bernard Penberthy) are the earliest records of the family in St Just. If you are expanding to other areas it may be more complicated although I have just checked and it appears I do have a spreadsheet completed for Lelant up to 1812. That one includes entries found in the earlier Exeter BTs dating back to the 1611 baptism of Marie daughter of Stephen Penberthie. I also appear to have extracted the St Ives entries which currently cover 1662-1736 although no BTs checked as yet.

Earlier tonight I downloaded all the Penberthy Wills for St Just and St Ives with a couple of strays from Helston and St Hilary. I already had the Lelant Wills for this family.

I am not sure how you format your searches for Penberthy on the OPC site so I wonder if you might have missed some entries because of that. Because the name can be spelt many ways (Penberthy, Pemberthy, Penberthie etc.) I decided to use the format p%b%t so I was also able to pick up variations such as Penbirth(e) but then I also checked through the registers 'line by line' to pick up as many as I could and then used available BTs to fill in gaps where there are problems with the registers - faded ink, fragmented/missing pages or illegibility for other reasons.

Having just sat back down at the PC a short time ago I am about to start working through the St Just and St Ives Wills. (I think I have probably checked the Lelant Wills before but will go through them again later.)

When I get this lot a little better sorted I will return to the Eddy families to try and finish that project.

CT

[Glazin2018]

Thanks CT

Yes I have started on the St Just families first and I think it is obvious already that they are most likely the start of the other areas as well.  Like you I looked at the wills on familysearch and I have downloaded all teh wills I could find there.

The thing about the spreadsheet is that if I could get it as accurate as possible, and by that I mean as many records as possible I believe the families will fall together just like they have in St Just.  Sadly in St Just I have come unstuck with one Henry and want to update my spreadsheet before I go back to that.

I will send you it to you now, you will see a spreadsheet with two worksheets contained in it, one being births etc, and the other deaths.

Lannanta

[myghaelangof]

Hi Lannanta, and Ian,
Excuse me if I'm duplicating, but a couple of additonal Penberthie thoughts for you:

Isaac, died 1690 intestate, was a tinner, which may or may not be relevant to his death aged 29/30.
I have the Thomas bapt 1685 down as his son.

John Penberthy appears in the 1596 Easter Book with no fee (suggests single person)
Margaret Penberthy married in St Just 1605.

There is one Isack Penberthy and a Bernard P. on the 1658 St Just list of men (aged 18-60).

There were, in my opinion at least, 3 Isaacs in St Just in 1690.
1. Isaac born circa 1620's d,1709
2, Isaac son of Isaac (1) bapt 24 Feb 1676/7 He is named in his father Isaac's will.
3. Isaac 1660-1690, son of Bernard.

Have also noted, William Penberthy, burger of St Ives, had a son Isaac bapt 30 Nov 1676.
The will of Bernard Penberthy 1700/01 was witnessed by a William Penberthy.

re Henry Penberthy I have only one early Henry: born 1663, son of Isaac and Ann (Edwards). Did he marry Katherine Harvey 13 Jan 1705? And was he the Henry, yeoman of St Just, 1730 will?

So, in St. Just, my earliest findings have been John 1596, and Margaret 1605. I have a feeling that the Penberthy family were linked to Lelant/Phillack but not enough evidence to make any links yet. Even more tenuous a family link to the Godolphin's!

Hope this is of some use,
Cheers, Mike

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Mike - I have read through your post and agree with pretty much everything. And yes, I believe Henry son of Isaac and Ann was the husband of Katherine Harvey.

I also suspect a link between St Just and the St Ives/Lelant area but so far have found nothing to definitively support it. The fact that we have names such as Isaac and Stephen in common do suggest the connection and I am just about certain now that those names are definitely the link between St Ives/Lelant and the Redruth/Illogan families.

I have not really started on the Redruth area yet but I think the first family there was of an Isaac Penberthy who is almost certainly either son of William (1676) from St Ives or the 1679 son of Christopher from Lelant.

I now have most of the St Ives/Lelant area families in the database with the exception of the early William at St Ives. It is possible there were two Williams but I am more inclined to think the man who married Thomasin Spriggs was previously married to an Elizabeth who was buried in 1664. There were at least two children by Elizabeth and although Thomasin died in 1675 I suspect Isaac of 1676 may have been her son. But with another three children (Jacob, Rebecca and William) baptised to a William Penberthy 1678-1684 I suspect the same William may have married a third time.

I need to finish working on the other families in surrounding Parishes and return to that scenario a little later.

re Henry Penberthy I have only one early Henry: born 1663, son of Isaac and Ann (Edwards). Did he marry Katherine Harvey 13 Jan 1705? And was he the Henry, yeoman of St Just, 1730 will?

Yes, that Will was written 5th February 1717 but not proved until 1730.

CT