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Post by donne on Jan 15, 2022 6:11:43 GMT -5
Looking for some assistance in tracking down the source of a DNA match linked to 18th century Crowan.
My match from an Australian family has published a comprehensive family tree identifying one of his forebears as Elizabeth Selina PASCOE, born Crowan 11 Apr 1794, and suggests that her parents are a PASCOE/DUNN pair and it is the DUNN connection that I am interested in tracking down. There is a birth/baptism record on the Cornwall OPC site which identifies Eliz. PASCOE, born 11 Apr 1794 (not sure where Selina comes from) and baptised 13 Apr in Crowan to Richd. and Mary . It seems likely that these are the Richard PASCOE and Mary DUNN who married 25 Jul 1790 in Crowan and produced a family over the period 1791 to 1803.
Elizabeth PASCOE married Samuel DAVIES 5 Sep 1820 in Crowan, and the family appears in the UK 1841 and 1851 censuses before apparently emigrating to Australia round about 1857. However, in the 1841 census, their household contains a Mary PASCOE aged 77 (it seems that no rounding has been applied to her age), who I assume would be Elizabeth's mother, giving her a birth date around 1764. I have looked for a Mary DUNN baptism in the Crowan area around 1764, and the only one I could come up with is Mary, daughter of Richard DUNN and Elizabeth FLOYD, bap. 14 Jul 1765.
But.. I still have a niggling doubt. A person aged 77 at the date of the 1841 census would have a birth date in the range 7 Jun 1763 to 6 Jun 1764 which is a year away from the baptism date I have. Is there a better candidate for my Mary DUNN?
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Post by zibetha on Jan 17, 2022 15:19:50 GMT -5
Greetings, Roger, I am distantly related to Mary Dunn via the Tremayne family. I do not have a marriage "assigned" to her. Her brother, Richard, connects to people I have researched. One year variance in age would not trouble me, as I have encountered much greater. In terms of your DNA match, I'd look at the match strength (if you haven't already). My favorite relationship calculator is this one: dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv2 Do you have other shared matches with your Australian cousin? Zibetha |
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Post by donne on Jan 18, 2022 14:30:34 GMT -5
Hi, Zib
Thanks for the your reply -that's really helpful. Unfortunately it's not a particularly strong match to may Australian cousin at 19cM but it does come from several generations back. If my links are correct our common ancestors would actually be Mary DUNN's grandparents who according to my tree would be Richard DUUN and Philippa BLIGHT mar. St Erth 1732. We do have some shared matches but none with another such well-researched family tree.
I am interested in your research into Mary's brother, Richard. I went a little way down that line, mainly using information from another correspondent. I have two marriages, the first with Christian RODDA, Crowan 1803 and the second with Margaret JENKIN, Crowan 1806, but I didn't continue far enough to reach a TREMAYNE family.
By the way, thanks for the tip on the relationship calculator. I have used dnapainter to document my most interesting DNA matches but I had yet to discover and use the calculator.
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Post by zibetha on Jan 18, 2022 19:39:33 GMT -5
Hi, Roger, I have the same marriages for Richard Dunn. His son John with wife Margaret married into my Blewett line. John's daughter, Philippa, married James Bartle Semmons who was my 2nd great uncle. (adding two more lines for me! --- Semmons and Bartle) The connection to the Tremayne family is further into the past via Philippa Blight. I have her paternal grandmother as Philippa Lawry whose maternal grandmother was Margery Tremayne. Margery's parents: Michael Tremayne and Margaret Tooker from the fabulous Tremayne Family History. www.constantinecornwall.com/wp-content/uploads/tremayne/23generations.pdfI get stronger DNA matches than expected that must be due to pedigree collapse on various lines. For example, lots of Tremayne links with my first known ancestor being Mary Tremayne born 1761 in Phillack to Matthew Tremayne and Susanna Nichols. I know this is based on autosomal testing, but I do seem to get more "further back" matches via maternal links. My brother has tested but does not share them as much. Zib
I have owed you this one
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Post by zibetha on Jan 18, 2022 19:48:25 GMT -5
P.S I don't often find middle names in my Cornish family until about 1815 or even later, so I do wonder when I spot them earlier on in other people's research. I would question where the "Selina" comes from.
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Post by donne on Jan 19, 2022 12:56:28 GMT -5
Hi, Roger, The connection to the Tremayne family is further into the past via Philippa Blight. I have her paternal grandmother as Philippa Lawry whose maternal grandmother was Margery Tremayne. Margery's parents: Michael Tremayne and Margaret Tooker from the fabulous Tremayne Family History. www.constantinecornwall.com/wp-content/uploads/tremayne/23generations.pdfWell, that's certainly an amazing document! As for Philippa Blight, I have her as my 4 x great-grandmother. As for her ancestry, all that I have is her parents as James BLIGHT/ Gartred BLEWETT mar. St. Erth 1704; then James BLGHT as son of John BLIGHT/ Philipp LAWRY mar. St. Erth circa 1660; then Philipp LAWRY as a daughter of James LAURY and Thomasin CHIGWIN mar. St. Erth 1638. I would be very pleased if you could add any further enlightenment. |
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Post by spikeharwood on Jan 19, 2022 16:01:47 GMT -5
I too have James BLIGHT/ Gartred BLEWETT as ancestors via their son James who is my 6x great grandfather. Have not researched back any further.
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Post by donne on Jan 19, 2022 16:40:12 GMT -5
I too have James BLIGHT/ Gartred BLEWETT as ancestors via their son James who is my 6x great grandfather. Have not researched back any further. Hello spike harwood, I guess that makes us some sort of cousin - have you done any DNA testing?. I have son James BLIGHT bap 1708 marrying Amy ROWE at Wendron in 1730, and producing a big family of 13 children but I've only followed through on the descendant trees of a couple of them. |
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Post by spikeharwood on Jan 21, 2022 16:35:42 GMT -5
I too have James BLIGHT/ Gartred BLEWETT as ancestors via their son James who is my 6x great grandfather. Have not researched back any further. Hello spike harwood, I guess that makes us some sort of cousin - have you done any DNA testing?. I have son James BLIGHT bap 1708 marrying Amy ROWE at Wendron in 1730, and producing a big family of 13 children but I've only followed through on the descendant trees of a couple of them. I have tested on Ancestry where I have access to my cousin's account. Technically she manages all the DNA accounts. Her user name is sonjecad so if you search for that name in matches you might find myself or my sister. My 4xgreat grandparents were John Whinnen b 1778 and Mary Blight. I have Mary as a granddaughter of James Blight and Amy Rowe. I have 80 DNA matches on my Whinnen line and 20 of them share John W and Mary Blight with me. It is possible that some of these 20 matches are on the Blight line. I haven't followed that up as yet. It would probably mean expanding the tree to include descendants of James and Amy's 13 children! |
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Post by donne on Jan 22, 2022 6:55:13 GMT -5
Hi Spike
Thanks for sharing the DNA link. I have tested on Amazon (and subsequently ported my DNA results to FTDNA, MyHeritage and gedmatch) but I get zero results searching for your DNA manager's name in my Ancestry matches. I wonder if I have a wrong family connection in my database? I can find the John WHINNEN/ Mary BLIGHT 1778 marriage you refer to in the Cornwall OPC database so I guess we are looking for a Mary BLIGHT baptism from about 1758 backwards. Again looking at the OPC database and just focusing on St. Erth, there would seem to be 5 candidate Mary BLIGHT baps: 22 Oct 1759 parents Richard/Mary; 18 Jun 1759 parents Robert/ Elizabeth; 22 Oct 1758 parents parents Richard/ Mary; 18 Jun 1758 parents Robert/ Elizabeth; 11 Oct 1750 parents Samuel/ Jane. (By the way, I've had a look at the original register images - I think that the 1759 transcripts are actually a duplicate of the 1758 baptisms with the wrong year associated.) I can't link any of these fathers to the sons of James BLIGHT and Amy ROWE.
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Post by zibetha on Jan 23, 2022 11:58:11 GMT -5
Hi Roger and Spike, While not a Blight descendant, this conversation has prompted me to revisit my match lists sorting by those with Blight connections. A couple of good results from looking at things from a different angle  We are at a level of cousin distance where DNA match likelihood is pretty iffy. When it happens, I cheer. I've put my test out on the same sites you listed, Roger. Besides new information, I do get a few different results, i.e., a known third cousin and I match on Gedmatch but not on Ancestry which did our kits. Algorithms. Zib |
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Post by donne on Jan 23, 2022 14:44:31 GMT -5
We are at a level of cousin distance where DNA match likelihood is pretty iffy. When it happens, I cheer. I've put my test out on the same sites you listed, Roger. Besides new information, I do get a few different results, i.e., a known third cousin and I match on Gedmatch but not on Ancestry which did our kits. Algorithms. Zib I actually have a very satisfactory match and corresponding paper trail to James BLIGHT/ Gartred BLEWETT on FTDNA. The paper trail says that I am the 6th cousin once removed to my matching cousin and FTDNA now predicts a relationship in the range 2nd to 5th cousin with the matching DNA quoted as 30cM, which is believable. However, a year or so ago when I first discovered the match, FTDNA was quoting 63cM and a "2nd to 4th cousin match! Algorithms change. If they include lots of meaningless small segments (say under 7cM) in the cM total, I think the prediction can be spurious. That is why I like to display my results in a chromosome browser, something which Ancestry, for example, doesn't have. The reason for my preoccupation with the Mary DUNN match of this thread is that I really could do with DNA backup to my putative DUNN family tree - an undistinguished name in the record cluttered with lots of Williams and Johns! |
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Post by zibetha on Jan 24, 2022 0:58:12 GMT -5
That is great! I have Blewett matches also which surprised me as my nearest ancestor with the surname was my 5x great-grandmother Martha, wife of Thomas Trewhela. Her parents were Edward Blewett and Anne Cocke. I have 6-10 matches that I can't link up any further down the line than Edward and Anne.
I hope someone tests soon who will back up your paper trail. Without DNA testers, I would never have been able to identify my 2nd great-grandfather, John Mitchell, even though I thought I had his birth date. I am still not sure about that date being correct. Matches in the US, Cornwall and Australia brought it together for me.
I have Gartred's father as George whose father might have been an Ephraim Blewett? Still working on that.
Zib
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Post by spikeharwood on Jan 25, 2022 2:13:22 GMT -5
Hi Roger, I have to admit that this is a line I have not looked at for a few years. This thread has given me the opportunity to do just that and I can see a second Mary Blight who needs to be also considered as the ancestor. I’ve also looked at three William Blights as the possible ancestor.
But first just to clarify the timeline; John Whinnen/Winnan/Winnen was bpt 1778 with his marriage to Mary Blight 24 Nov 1798, so we would be looking for Mary’s bpt from 1778 backwards. We have two baptisms, both in 1777. The daughters of William Blight and Jennifer (Cornish) 23 Nov St Erth and William Blight and Penelope (Cocking) 26 Oct St Hilary/Marazion. Although this Mary was bpt St Hilary along with three other siblings her two oldest siblings and two youngest were bpt St Erth. It’s worth noting that two of the siblings were named James and Amy.
Then we have the question as to the identity of these two William Blights. Somewhat inconsiderately, three sons of James Blight and Gertrude Blewett name a son William. JamesB and Amy Rowe’s William was bpt 21 Mar 1734 St Erth, SamuelB and Jane Rowe’s William was bpt 20 Feb 1742 at Crowan and JohnB and Avis Barnes’ William was bpt 3 Dec 1743 at Crowan.
Up until now I’d had my line as James and Amy then William Blight and Jennifer Cornish then Mary Blight and John Winnan. Based on naming patterns it is more likely that the William Blight who m Penelope Cocking is the son of James and Amy as they named two children James and Amy.
I think the naming patterns give me the correct Mary as the dau of William and Jennifer as she names a dau Jennifer Blight Winnan, and given that there is another child named Samuel Winnan I think her father is the son of Samuel and Jane.
I wouldn’t get too hung up about not being a DNA match. When we get that far back the chances of descendants matching can be as low as 10%. I’d be curious though, if you were to put Winnen and variations separately into the surnames in trees of DNA matches how many people come up.
I’m on FTDNA (are you in the Cornish Project?), MH, GEDmatch and LivingDNA. I’ve got a 23andMe kit when I get around to doing it. I’m A251986 on GEDmatch and my sister is T395186.
Cheers S
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 25, 2022 6:19:03 GMT -5
Hi all - although not contributing to this discussion so far I have been keeping an eye on it with a bit of interest given my Towednack Trewhella family almost certainly migrated from St Erth. I have many of the people mentioned in the discussion in my database but have had nothing relevant to offer the discussion so far. But I do want to throw in a little something in regards to this quote from Spike:- For what it is worth I have a set of parameters I work by that can be very handy in situations like this. Nothing perfect but at least it helps create a logical boundary within which to work. First thing is the age of the bride - the legal age of marriage for females I think was about 14 during this period for females although I don't think I have found a bride as young as that so far! But I have certainly seen records of mothers as young as 16 and 17! At the other end of the scale is the maximum age for a woman to have been having children back then and it was 'Zenobia' who put the age of 48 in my head back in the days this forum was created. And I have plenty of records in my database of children born and baptised to mothers where were in fact 48 at the time. So - when trying to determine the identity of a bride I use age 16 as the the youngest a girl might have been at marriage (and first child) and 48 a the time of birth of the last child. (I have seen at least one example where the woman was almost certainly age 49 when her last child was born!) Therefore if Mary Blight married in November 1798 I would work on the possibility she may have been born as late as about 1782.  It is often very difficult where the mother's name is not recorded in the baptism records so sometimes there is a process of elimination to work through when dealing with more than one family with the same parent names. But using the 16-48 template it is possible to narrow down possibilities and make the picture that little bit clearer. In the case of this Mary Blight you can work out her earliest possible year of birth by subtracting 48 from the date of birth/baptism of her last known child. And by assuming her age as 16 at marriage you will have a potential latest year of birth. The one wildcard in all of these calculations is the fact that a child may not have beeen baptised until several years after birth. That was more prevalent later but it did happen occasionally before the 19th Century. Not everyone followed the conventional naming patterns either but if you work with the 'formula' above for the bride and begin with the assumption that the family is following some sort of traditional naming pattern then it should hopefully make it easier to identify families for the bride and groom. (I am a bit tired at the moment and did have a couple of ales earlier but I hope you are all able to understand the above!  CT |
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