Harvey / Rodda in Victoria, Australia area

[phonelady]

Hi Everyone

Helping a friend in Australia who is trying to find out about her family. She is stopped at her Harvey grandparents and Harvey / Rodda great-grandparents.

Her father, Rodney John Harvey, did not know much about his father or family.

Rodney JOHN Harvey

BIRTH 27 OCT 1947 • Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

DEATH 21 OCT 2019 • Tocumwal, New South Wales, Australia

Rodney J. Harvey was married to Leonie Rose Wickey

BIRTH 7 JAN 1959 • Tumut, New South Wales, Australia

DEATH 14 AUG 2011 • Darlington Point, New South Wales, Australia



Rodney John Harvey’s parents were

John Harvey

BIRTH ABT. 1915 • Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

DEATH Australia

Mavis Jean Pavey

BIRTH 24 SEP 1926 • Deniliquin, New South Wales, Australia

DEATH 29 OCTOBER 2002 • Morwell, Victoria, Australia

Marriage

From Births, Deaths and Marriages Victoria. The reference number is - 4458 & it's number in register is - 1314 in the register, January 13, 1949 @ St Augustine's church, Yarraville, Victoria. John Harvey, birthplace - Sydney N.S.W., occupation - Labourer, age on last birthday - 33. Residence - 1 Albert St, Ferntree Gully, Vic. Father - John Thomas Harvey, deceased. Mother's maiden name - Rose Mary Rodda.

Married Mavis Jean Pavey, born Deniliquin, New South Wales 23 yrs old at time of marriage. Father Charles Reginald Pavey (deceased), mother maiden name - Ida Marion Richardson.



John Harvey’s parents were

John Thomas Harvey

BIRTH Unknown

DEATH BEF. 1949 • Australia

Rose Mary Rodda

BIRTH Unknown

DEATH POST 1949 • Australia

John Thomas Harvey lived in West Sydney, New South Wales, Australia during the 1930’s.



I’d like to connect back to her Cornwall rellies, but haven’t come up with birth or death info, for the paternal side, over in OZ.

Is anyone related or could you give me some instruction for finding more info about these folks?

Thanks!

[Cornish Terrier]

For the time period you are looking at this may not be an easy task especially with so many unknowns involved. Dealing with multiple States (NSW/Victoria) and the varying quality of indexes for available online records is also a challenge. And one of the unknowns seems to be the timing and length of stay of some of the persons of interest in each of the States.

But based on the information you have provided I have found 1 POTENTIAL death entry for John Thomas Harvey. The difficulty with this one is that he would have been born about 1904 but it is at least a starting point. (There is an Ancestry Family Tree for this family but no indication of a marriage for John Thomas Harvey.)

Jno Thos Harvey age 40 died Richmond Victoria 1944
Registration No. 12118
Parents Wm Harvey and Selina Pettit

What I cannot find anywhere in either Victoria or New South Wales is any reference to a Rose Mary Rodda. I can find no John Thomas Rodda in the Electoral Rolls with a wife named Rose, Rose Mary, Rosemary and no sign of any marriage of a John (or John Thomas) Harvey to anyone named Rodda that could in any way fit the scenario provided. I can also find no Electoral Roll entry showing John Rodda and wife Mavis together.

The only other thing I have managed to find appears likely to originate from your friend. It is an Ancestry Family Tree with similar details to a lot of what you have provided and it includes a screen shot of the top half of the marriage certificate for John Harvey and Mavis Pavey.

The only other thing I can think of right now is that it is possible John Thomas Harvey might have been an illegitimate child. That 'could' help explain why it is so difficult to track him down.

CT

[zibetha]

Coincidentally, I am working an unrelated but similar search of Australian records connected to my Harvey line. Since John Thomas Harvey, son of William and Selina, was born 1905 and died 1944, I would think you can rule all three of them out. Is there any documentation linking the name "Thomas" to your friend's John Harvey?

I've been able to fine-tune my search via images of military records for the son of the person I'm researching. They gave me a much better-defined address/location for the father. From matching voter records, I know know he lived at least 40 years after the birth of his youngest child. Also, military service was helpful in explaining the 17-year age difference between son and his wife. I was able to rule out the possibility of it being a second marriage.

With your instance in mind, I took a look for WWII service records for a John Harvey. Nothing found But I did find the file for a Harvey cousin of mine in the process, so thank you

My library offers access to Fold3 online which is nice these days.

Zib

[phonelady]

The death entry you found is possible, since I don't have a birth date to counter that 1904 guess.

The person with the Ancestry tree that includes the top half of the Harvey / Pavey marriage cert is my friend's cousin.

Ok, illegitimate child might be an answer.
DNA would be the next thing called for in that case.
I will see if she is willing to test.

Thank you for your help CT!
Onwards!

[phonelady]

Jan 6, 2022 15:30:38 GMT -5 zibetha said:

Coincidentally, I am working an unrelated but similar search of Australian records connected to my Harvey line. Since John Thomas Harvey, son of William and Selina, was born 1905 and died 1944, I would think you can rule all three of them out. Is there any documentation linking the name "Thomas" to your friend's John Harvey?

I've been able to fine-tune my search via images of military records for the son of the person I'm researching. They gave me a much better-defined address/location for the father. From matching voter records, I know know he lived at least 40 years after the birth of his youngest child. Also, military service was helpful in explaining the 17-year age difference between son and his wife. I was able to rule out the possibility of it being a second marriage.

With your instance in mind, I took a look for WWII service records for a John Harvey. Nothing found But I did find the file for a Harvey cousin of mine in the process, so thank you

My library offers access to Fold3 online which is nice these days.

Zib

Thank you for looking Zib!

Unfortunately, there is a dearth of documentation on this family in OZ. 
Or I'm just not catching something in the records.
There's a John Thomas William Harvey that shows up in the Electoral Rolls - Darling Harbour, West Sydney, New South Wales, 1930 - 1936. 
No way to prove that that's "our" John Thomas Harvey though...
I will look through fold 3.

[Cornish Terrier]

The death entry you found is possible, since I don't have a birth date to counter that 1904 guess.

The one thing that does point to a birth around 1915 is the marriage record which shows that John Harvey was 'supposedly' age 33 at the time of his marriage to Mavis Pavey in 1949.

There were quite a number of Harveys in Australia and unfortunately quite a number of that number were named John. And of those there were many with various combinations of additional christian names that were again often similar.

What is the source of information stating the John Harvey of interest was at West Sydney during the 1930s?

The Electoral Rolls may be one of the best sources for trying to track John especially if his occupation remained the same.

CT

[phonelady]

John Harvey that was born about 1915 in Sydney NSW, should be generating SOME records somewhere.
It's his father John Thomas Harvey for which we can't find any BMD records.

If John Thomas Harvey and Rose Mary Rodda were married when John Harvey was born in 1915 in Sydney, NSW, there should be SOME records for them.


A sampling from the
Australia, Electoral Rolls, 1903-1980, New South Wales, West Sydney, Darling Harbour

John Thomas William Harvey, 1930 painter, 68 Erskine St.
John Thomas William Harvey, 1931 painter, 68 Erskine St.
John Harvey 1934- labourer, 24A Campbell St.
John Thomas William Harvey, 1936 painter, 68 Erskine St.

No way to know if this is our John Thomas Harvey. I don't know if he was a painter or labourer

And there's a Rosa Mary Harvey on the Electoral rolls during that decade, but she's living in Williams, Swan, Western Australia. This Rosemary doesn't connect back to NSW.

[Cornish Terrier]

Everything we have so far ................. or perhaps that should say everything we 'don't have' ................ seems to be pointing us in the direction of an illegitimate birth. And that presents many more issues to deal with.

For example, we do not seem to have anything to confirm whether or not John Harvey was born in Australia. If he was born in Australia then in which State was he born? We have information that he spent time in both NSW and Victoria but discounting Queensland and South Australia (or even Tasmania or WA) may not be wise. If he was not born in Australia then the UK would be most likely.

Maybe the focus should be shifted for a while to trying to track down Rose Mary Rodda.

CT

[phonelady]

Did a quick look in the Cornwall OPC for him over a ten year span. Given his sons 1915 bd. 1895 to 1905. No John Thomas Harvey specifically.
Will look for Rose Mary Rosemarie Rodda next.
Thanks CT

[Cornish Terrier]

There are a lot of variables to ponder with this problem with the possibility of illegitimacy offering evern more. We have 'names' for John Harvey's parents as recorded on his marriage certificate - i.e. John Thomas Harvey and Rose Mary Rodda - but we do know know just how accurate these names are.

If John Harvey was illegitimate then the first question we might need to ask is 'did he actually know' his father or was it a case of his mother telling him his father was named John Thomas Harvey?

Illegitimacy also brings in the question of how the birth was registered - could young John been registered at birth under his mother's name?

Given the difficulty so far in location either of the parents in the Electoral Rolls or any other records I would also query the accuracy of the mother's name. The surname could have a number of different spellings (Rodda, Rodda, Rhodda, Rodder etc.) but until we can track her down 'on paper' somewhere then I also have to wonder about those forenames - Rose Mary.

Just a little more food for thought.

BTW - if you haven't done so already then it might also be worth taking a look at military records for both Wars in which this Harvey family might have been involved.

CT

[zibetha]

Never say die! That should be a James Bond movie title. I took me 15 years to find a great grandfather's parents. 60 before he was reunited with his brother after the death of his father and his mother's remarriage. He was known by his stepfather's last name. We all knew the story but with a big twist being location. We "remember" it the same way and talked about it at family holiday dinners. Sam and Jesse were actually born in Indiana USA before birth records were recorded. Not in the state of Georgia. 1000+ miles away from the family story. DNA test after the discovery continues to confirm everything.

Zib

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Attachments:

[zibetha]

Keeping it Cornish, I can connect my great-grandfather to the St Aubyn family.

I keep drawing bigger maps.

[phonelady]

Jan 7, 2022 10:44:18 GMT -5 Cornish Terrier said:

There are a lot of variables to ponder with this problem with the possibility of illegitimacy offering evern more. We have 'names' for John Harvey's parents as recorded on his marriage certificate - i.e. John Thomas Harvey and Rose Mary Rodda - but we do know know just how accurate these names are.

If John Harvey was illegitimate then the first question we might need to ask is 'did he actually know' his father or was it a case of his mother telling him his father was named John Thomas Harvey?

Illegitimacy also brings in the question of how the birth was registered - could young John been registered at birth under his mother's name?

Given the difficulty so far in location either of the parents in the Electoral Rolls or any other records I would also query the accuracy of the mother's name. The surname could have a number of different spellings (Rodda, Rodda, Rhodda, Rodder etc.) but until we can track her down 'on paper' somewhere then I also have to wonder about those forenames - Rose Mary.

Just a little more food for thought.

BTW - if you haven't done so already then it might also be worth taking a look at military records for both Wars in which this Harvey family might have been involved.

CT

Yea, the use of Surnames always adds a bit of adventure to the game, eh?
I can look at the military records again with a wider scope in the hope of finding Harvey's from NSW/Victoria participating.

I have been keeping an open mind about the Rodda name since Cornwall records have it in the earlier days as Rodda, Rhodda and so on. 

Thank you for the additional ideas CT!

[phonelady]

Jan 7, 2022 11:54:07 GMT -5 zibetha said:

Never say die! That should be a James Bond movie title. I took me 15 years to find a great grandfather's parents. 60 before he was reunited with his brother after the death of his father and his mother's remarriage. He was known by his stepfather's last name. We all knew the story but with a big twist being location. We "remember" it the same way and talked about it at family holiday dinners. Sam and Jesse were actually born in Indiana USA before birth records were recorded. Not in the state of Georgia. 1000+ miles away from the family story. DNA test after the discovery continues to confirm everything.

Zib

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Oh indeed!
I don't give up that easily!
Newspapers from the area an time haven't given me anything under those names, but I figure that after enough looking, I am going to find a blip on the radar that will give me a location.  
Those people had to be there long enough to produce offspring. 
DNA does wonders in that area.

(I will have to give this to the DNA search experts though)

[zibetha]

I cheer you on. I can trace my great-grandfather back to the St Aubyns now. Who knew? I did not but have learned to keep an open mind. That "English" (insert Ha Ha) boy, my great-grsndfather born about 4 months after the 1880 census was taken so never appeared on record with his family. He gave his stepfather as parent on his marriage license.