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Post by killalee on Nov 24, 2021 8:25:49 GMT -5
Hello and and I am ecstatic to have found this group!
After many years of both personal and professional genealogical sleuthing, I have traced my agnatic line (in Oz off and on since the mid to late C19th) to a proved ancestor, one Thomas Thomas (baptised 1 May 1708 - died I believe in 1748) who married Ann Lanyon (b.1707) in St. Just on the 2nd of March 1730.
His baptism record gives his father as John, his mother Bridget, and thus clearly John Thomas and Bridget Grose, married 7 July 1707, also in St Just.
I believe John is descended from the Zennor Thomas family, going back to "George Thomas also Trithwell" whose will has been discussed elsewhere in this group, but I am currently unable to prove this definitively. I am therefore looking to document this John's birth and then futher ancestry.
Can anyone help?
Thanks
Andrew
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Post by trencrom on Nov 24, 2021 12:52:51 GMT -5
Hi Andrew,
"Thomas" is a common surname in that part of the world, and so not all West Penwith Thomases will be from the Zennor family that you mention. Could you elaborate on why you believe that there is a connection to them?
George Thomas of Zennor who you mention died in 1666 so that even if he is, for arguments sake, related, he's at least two, more likely three generations removed from your John who would have been born roughly circa 1680-1685 in order to be full age when he married in 1707.
This is a difficult time frame for finding ancestors in the West Penwith area: I have numerous ancestors in Zennor which I cannot get past the early 1700s because of the lack of surviving records, and I also have some ancestors in the St Just area in the same time frame as yours and who I cannot identify parents for.
I would suggest the following approaches, if you have not employed them already:
Check to see if this was a second marriage for your John Thomas, as that might have a bearing on his potential year of birth. Where were the children of this John and Bridget christened? You mentioned the christening of Thomas; were there other children, and were they all christened in Saint Just?
Among these children, did any of them have any names that were somewhat uncommon in the area at that time? If so, do those names occur amongst the relations of their mother Bridget? If not, they may be names that came down from the Thomas family that John was a part of.
To elaborate: names like "John", "William", "Mary" and "Elizabeth" appeared to have been in every Cornish family of the period if they were large enough. On the other hand, names like "Peter", "George", "Christian', "Sampson", "Ursula" while not necessarily uncommon names to our minds were nevertheless not that common in the West Penwith area at that time. So these are the kinds of names that you need to look out for.
In terms of proving it definitively, you will probably need to discover some land records such as leases, or probate records that confirm family relationships. I would certainly check all Thomas wills in and around St Just to begin with for the period say 1680 to 1750 (available on FamilySearch) to see if there are any clear references to your John therein. I would have also have a look at the Henderson collection of Cornish manuscripts which has been microfilmed by the LDS, to see what you can find about the family therein. The images of this collection are visible on the FamilySearch website. Also check the LDS locality catalogue for St Just to see if there are any other early records available, such as for example church rate books, that may give an indication of potential ancestors in that area at that time. Also have a look at the Hearth Tax records for potential Thomas ancestors there at that time, and also the Association Oath rolls, which are a generation later, for the same.
Trencrom
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Post by killalee on Nov 24, 2021 13:26:32 GMT -5
Good evening.
It's a combination of repeated names, family understandings/oral history and a few other things, including later marriages between related families.
One of my g-grandfather's agnatic cousins approached the College of Arms in 1940, and whilst they no longer have the correspondence on file, they do have the final draft notes of the grant - they gave him the same arms as the Thomases of Zennor (and incidentally the Bosavarnes of St Just who were actually Thomases) but with 2 congruent differences to demonstrate it was believed to be the same family but wasn't proven to sufficient standards to allow the same arms at the time.
Interestingly my line has not interacted with that line for nearly a century, and we both (still) have the same understanding, as does another cousin I recently got in touch with.
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Post by killalee on Nov 24, 2021 13:30:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the tips. Many of those have already been looked at, but not by me and not for a fair while, so I live in hope. I'm only missing 1, or possibly 2, generations - almost certain it's just the one I need to identify.
I am pretty sure if I could identify "my" JT I'd be sorted. There doesn't seem to be any birth records in St Just that cover him, from the OPC records... (Edited to add - given the amazing amount of work many have done here on that name, I was wistfully hoping someone may have the answer already filed away!)
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Post by killalee on Nov 24, 2021 13:55:13 GMT -5
Trencrom
The only 2 I can be sure of are Thomas, bap. 1 May 1708, and Charles, bap 9 August 1714, both in St Just and both naming both parents in the register.
Other children of "a" John Thomas neither name the mother, nor are in St Just either so likely aren't the same family (but I can't prove it either way based on current information).
I looked at St Just and neighbouring parishes for the period 1708 to 1725, where a "John Thomas" is listed as the father...
They are:
* Elizabeth, bap. and died 1709. * William, bap. 12 July 1712, in Morvah. * Mary, bap. 19 March 1714, in Morvah (so can't share a mother with the above-mentioned Charles!). * Elizabeth (again) bap. 21 July 1723, in Madron. * Catherine, bap. 19 December 1725, in Madron.
I suspect we are looking at the offspring here of 3 different John Thomases, with only Thomas and Charles being of my family.
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Post by killalee on Nov 24, 2021 14:10:59 GMT -5
In the period 1650 - 1690 I can only find 3 John Thomases listed in the baptismal records in the area likely to match:
1) In Morvah 1675 John, son of Nicholas Thomas. 2) In Morvah 1676, John, son of Francis Thomas (I suspect Nicholas and Francis were brothers or perhaps cousins?). 3) In St Buryan 1678 John, son of John Thomas and Elizabeth.
There is a fourth in Sancreed bapt. on 4 October 1663, and l don't THINK he is a likely candidate at present, but won't totally rule it out - nor would I an "incomer" from further afield.
A cousin has stated "my" John is actually 1) above but I haven't seen any proof at all of this.
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Post by killalee on Nov 24, 2021 20:11:28 GMT -5
Trencrom - you may have hit on something with the second marriage.
A Grace Perrow (I believe the woman bapt. 12 Nov. 1670 in St Just is the likely candidate), wife of John Thomas, was buried in St Just 08 May 1706 (married January 31st, 1701). Grace's death was just over a year before my known John Thomas married Bridget Grose in July 1707.
Question - could it be the same John, and 2 marriages???
Grace and John had a son, also John, baptised 29 March 1703, and a daughter Grace (10 Sept. 1704).
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Post by killalee on Nov 24, 2021 20:18:24 GMT -5
That would also explain why I couldn't find a son named John from the John/Bridget marriage (which I had found surprising). He may be a son of a 1st marriage.
If so, a January 1701 1st marriage would make him probably born prior to 1679 or so at a minimum - possibly a good couple of years earlier.
As it happens, Bridget Grose was born in 1673 so was in her late 20s when she married John.
Which makes any one of the three above identified JTs possible (or even probable).
Interestingly there were also later intermarriages between my known Thomas family and the Perrows.
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Post by killalee on Nov 24, 2021 20:47:50 GMT -5
So. I think I have a testable hypothesis at least, now:
John Thomas (born at least in or before 1679, and probably a few years before) seems to have:
Married first to Grace Perrow in 1701, had children John (1703) and Grace (1704), before she died in 1706.
Married second to Bridget Grose (I know this is the marriage I am descended from via the 1st child Thomas (1708), but said marriage also produced Charles (1714). There may also have been other children including Elizabeth (1709-1709) but I cannot be sure).
Only 3 John Thomases were born in (none) or around (several) St Just in our timeframe that I can currently locate (there's an earlier 4th John I will discount for the present):
1) John son of Nicholas (Morvah, 1675) 2) John son of Francis (Morvah, 1676, likely brother or 1st cousin of above) 3) John son of John and Elizabeth (St Buryan, 1678)
Separately from me a cousin has identified 1) above as the relationship, but I do not know on what evidence this is based.
That is what I now need to try either to prove or disprove.
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Post by killalee on Nov 25, 2021 5:26:53 GMT -5
Wondering if Cornish Terrier may have something on file concerning the above?
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Post by trencrom on Nov 25, 2021 6:09:57 GMT -5
Hi again Killalee,
Reading through your posts since I did my last one, I agree that you do have a testable hypothesis here, and the fact that Bridget was born in 1673 I think lends weight to that hypothesis.
You also have a series of given names that I think fit into the group that I categorised as being "uncommon", namely "Nicholas", "Francis" and "Charles". Do you know whether or not Charles may have been named after somebody on his mothers side of the family or not? If that was not the case, then his name may provide a clue as to the identity of John's father's family.
My immediate reaction after reading your post is to think that your listed options one and two are going to be somewhat less likely than listed option three if the given names of the fathers in options one or two do not appear among the given names of your John's children. That said, I notice that there is a gap of some years between your two currently known children of John and Bridget, so it is certainly possible that there may have been one or two additional christenings taking place during that time.
I noticed that you said you looked at the Cornwall OPC database, Which is a wonderful resource, but have you looked at the images of the original registers? Not just the parish registers themselves, but also both sets of bishops transcripts. As you may know, there are two sets of the BTs, the Bodmin set and the Exeter set. As a general rule, the Exeter set are the older ones, but I have found with at least one other West Penwith parish that there was an overlap in the range of dates applicable to the two sets, and that overlap occurred in the time frame that you're interested in relative to the birth of John. The exact years covered were however different in each. So if you had already looked at the Bodmin set and could not find anything relevant there for the period of time in question, I would still have a look at the Exeter ones for anything in that same time frame.
Trencrom
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Post by trencrom on Nov 25, 2021 6:36:30 GMT -5
Killalee,
On the subject of coats of arms, I noted your comment that the Bosavernes/Bosaverne Thomases had the same coat of arms as the Zennor Thomases. I remember seeing their pedigree and wondered about it at the time. The only problem is, the armorial authorities differ with each other over Penwith Thomas family coats of arms. The arms of "per pale nebulée argent and azure" are also ascribed to the Thomas family of Cury, which was previously of Lelant, for which pedigree William Thomas of Cury was the informant to the heralds in 1620. But another authority gives the Cury Thomases an entirely different set of arms, namely "gules a chevron and a canton ermine", which are also shown as being the arms of the Thomas family of Chiverton in Perranzabuloe. The "per pale nebulée" arms are meanwhile also shown as being the arms of the Thomases of Treune in Budock.
On top of that, another source found by me appears to have something else altogether for the coat of arms of George of Zennor's family!
What is pretty clear is that there were at least two or three different armorial Thomas families, and with very different coats of arms, in the Penwith area in the early 17th century.
Trencrom
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Post by killalee on Nov 25, 2021 7:42:10 GMT -5
Actually if you look at it it's clear there are several different lineages of Thomases. The per pale nebuly Argent and Azure applies to the Thomases of Cowan and Lelant and their descendants, including the Bosavarnes (one of whom in the 1620 Visitation is listed as "Martin, als. Thomas" off the top of my head. And I just looked up the description in Vivian. They state in the Appendix they are definitely Thomases: archive.org/details/visitationofcoun091874/page/303/mode/1up ) Interesting a daughter/likely heiress of the main family eventually married into another St Just family - Jane Thomas married Thomas Allen of Bosaverne in 1709. The "other" Thomas family you refer to is actually the Carnsew family. They are indeed unrelated. See: archive.org/details/visitationofcoun091874/page/216/mode/1up?view=theater Killalee, On the subject of coats of arms, I noted your comment that the Bosavernes/Bosaverne Thomases had the same coat of arms as the Zennor Thomases. I remember seeing their pedigree and wondered about it at the time. The only problem is, the armorial authorities differ with each other over Penwith Thomas family coats of arms. The arms of "per pale nebulée argent and azure" are also ascribed to the Thomas family of Cury, which was previously of Lelant, for which pedigree William Thomas of Cury was the informant to the heralds in 1620. But another authority gives the Cury Thomases an entirely different set of arms, namely "gules a chevron and a canton ermine", which are also shown as being the arms of the Thomas family of Chiverton in Perranzabuloe. The "per pale nebulée" arms are meanwhile also shown as being the arms of the Thomases of Treune in Budock. On top of that, another source found by me appears to have something else altogether for the coat of arms of George of Zennor's family! What is pretty clear is that there were at least two or three different armorial Thomas families, and with very different coats of arms, in the Penwith area in the early 17th century. Trencrom
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Post by killalee on Nov 25, 2021 8:08:03 GMT -5
Hi again Killalee, Reading through your posts since I did my last one, I agree that you do have a testable hypothesis here, and the fact that Bridget was born in 1673 I think lends weight to that hypothesis. You also have a series of given names that I think fit into the group that I categorised as being "uncommon", namely "Nicholas", "Francis" and "Charles". Do you know whether or not Charles may have been named after somebody on his mothers side of the family or not? If that was not the case, then his name may provide a clue as to the identity of John's father's family. My immediate reaction after reading your post is to think that your listed options one and two are going to be somewhat less likely than listed option three if the given names of the fathers in options one or two do not appear among the given names of your John's children. That said, I notice that there is a gap of some years between your two currently known children of John and Bridget, so it is certainly possible that there may have been one or two additional christenings taking place during that time. I noticed that you said you looked at the Cornwall OPC database, Which is a wonderful resource, but have you looked at the images of the original registers? Not just the parish registers themselves, but also both sets of bishops transcripts. As you may know, there are two sets of the BTs, the Bodmin set and the Exeter set. As a general rule, the Exeter set are the older ones, but I have found with at least one other West Penwith parish that there was an overlap in the range of dates applicable to the two sets, and that overlap occurred in the time frame that you're interested in relative to the birth of John. The exact years covered were however different in each. So if you had already looked at the Bodmin set and could not find anything relevant there for the period of time in question, I would still have a look at the Exeter ones for anything in that same time frame. Trencrom Trencrom So far my work has been from existing records, a professional genealogist, and I have only recently returned to chasing it so no, not gone past the OPC records and a couple of wills I could find online. Whilst I have a background in the area (archaeologist and medieval/early modern history degree!) I don't consider myself an expert on West Cornish resources - thus my involvement here where you have been amazingly helpful. I also am minded to turn my hypothesis over to another professional genealogist to see what they can make of it... Andrew
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Post by killalee on Nov 25, 2021 8:15:59 GMT -5
By the way - IF my hypothesis turned out to be 100% correct (unlikely!) the line would be (going backwards, based on the various wills and lineages discussed elsewhere):
1. John Thomas (husband of Bridget Grose), son of: 2. Nicholas Thomas and his wife Rebecca (surname), son of: 3. Thomas Thomas and his wife Jane (also née Thomas I think?), son of: 4. George Thomas als. Trithwall and his wife Cheston (née Davy), son of: 5. John Thomas, als. Trithwall of Crowan.
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