sorting out the various John NOALLs of St. Ives

[cledry]

Hi all, coming back to genealogy after many years away.

Trying to sort out the various John NOALLS in the early records of St. Ives. I have John, John junior, John the 3rd. However I feel there several John NOALLs and several John NOALLs.

I believe my 6x great grandfather John NOALL junior wed Prudence QUICK at St. Ives 24 Nov 1702. Here's where it gets confusing. I assume his father was a John NOALL but not sure which one.

I believe the children from this union to be:

John NOALL bap 24 Jun 1706
Matthew NOALL bap 7 Sep 1707
Mary NOALL bap 22 JUL 1711
Job NOALL bap 11 JUl 1714
James NOALL bap 06 Jan 1714/15
Margaret NOALL 27 Apr 1718
Richard NOALL 23 Apr 1721

... but why the long gap 1702 - 1706?

It gets more confusing in that there is a John NOALL junior having children baptised in St. Ives prior to 1702 as well.

Henry NOALL bap 28 SEP 1684
Mary NOALL bap 28 MAR 1687
John NOALL bap 22 FEB 1695

As well as burials:

John son of John NOALL junior buried 1677
Prudence dau of John NOALL junior buried 14 Apr 1690
John son of John NOALL junior buried 1695

So should I assume it is the same John NOALL junior and he had a previous marriage? My head is spinning.

[Cornish Terrier]

The first thing you need to be aware of with this problem is that the term 'John Noall jnr' does not necessarily mean that John was 'son of John'. Whilst that is often the case the term also means that 'John Noall junr' is the younger of two or more John Noalls in the area.
These may be uncle and nephew or grandfather and grandson or father and son but they may also be either more remotely related or not related at all!!

It do get confusin'!

I have made more than one attempt at sorting out this problem and as recently as January this year, with the help of the St Ives Parish Registers and Wills, I concluded that the John Noall who married Prudence Quick was baptised at St Ives 21st April 1678 to John Noall senr.
So already we have another instance of the senior vs junior problem! But it tangles even further when you look at the record of marriage for this man:-

St Ives Parish Register
1661
15th July John Noale junr and Margery James married

John appears to have been the youngest of 8 children of John and Margery Noall. But for the moment let's concentrate on John and Prudence.

The one thing I have not yet been able to do is to sort out exactly how many children belong to John and Prudence given there was at least one other John Noall baptising children at St Ives around the same time. Those I am reasonably certain of are:-

Mary daughter of John Noale bp. 6th January 1703 at Towednack (remember that Prudence Quick was from a Towednack family)
John son of John Noale 3:tius bp. 26th August 1705 at St Ives (3:tius means 3rd thus suggesting a successive line of 3 John Noalls) - he married Elizabeth Uren at St Ives in 1733
Prudence daughter of John Noal of Liddah bp. 29th January 1707 at St Ives - married John Row at St Ives in 1731
Thomas son of John Noall of Leddah bp. 20th July 1710 at St Ives - married Honor Bottrell at Lelant in 1734
Margery daughter of John Noal bp. 2nd February 1712 at St Ives (I am not absolutely certain of her but the name does suggest she may have been named for Margery James)
Samuel son of John Noall and Prudence his wife bp. 6th January 1715 at St Ives
Margaret daughter of John Noall of Leeder and Prudence his wife bp. 27th April 1718 at St Ives - married Andrew Rosewall at St Ives in 1741
Richard son of John Noall Leeda and Prudence his wife bp. 23rd April 1721 at St Ives - married Mary Harry at St Ives in 1745
William son of John Noall of Leader and Prudence his wife bp. 8th October 1724 at St Ives - married Ann Stevens at St Ives in 1748

There are a further four children baptised during this period that I am almost certain cannot belong to the above family. Unfortunately I have not been able to determine yet exactly where they do belong:-

Matthew son of John Noale junr bp. 7th September 1707
Phillipp daughter of John Noall bp. 26th March 1710
Mary daughter of John Noal junr bp. 22nd July 1711
Job son of John Noal junr bp. 11th July 1714

The burial of Prudence daughter of John Noall junior in 1690 is a result of the marriage of John Noall and Prudence Wall at St Ives in 1676. This John Noall was buried at St Ives 31st January 1712 and is responsible for the following children:-

John bp. 30th September 1677 and buried 2nd January 1677 St Ives
Simon bp. 15th August 1679 - married Emblen Creed at St Ives in 1704
Andrew bp. 13th November 1681 - married Margaret Williams at St Ives in 1707
Henry bp. 28th September 1684 - married Mary Perkins at St Ives in 1707
Mary bp. 26th March 1687
Prudence bp. 9th February 1689 and buried 14th April 1689
John bp. 22nd February 1695 and buried 23rd February 1695

Note that all dates are 'Old Style' so the months January to March are at the end of the Calendar Year.

Hope that helps sort out at least some of the confusion.

CT

[cledry]

I will have a look after work tomorrow. Curiously though The John Noall that married Prudence Quick was listed as John Noall junior. The one that married Prudence Wall was not referred to as junior when they were married. However if the one that married Prudence Quick is the son of John Noall junior and Margery wouldn't he be the third?

[Cornish Terrier]

If you look at it that way then, theoretically speaking, a John Noall married in 1850 might then be referred to as John Noall the 15th!!

There is no simple answer to the reasons but it may have been that neither of the Johns was related. It might also have been that the Vicar wasn't interested in the details or may have simply forgotten to make the note. Or it may have been there was enough of an age difference between the elder and younger John in this case for it not to matter. (The John who married Margery James would have been up to 15 years older than the one who married Prudence Wall. But you could chase this round in circles for years and get nowhere.

A better question might be why some widowers in later years were recorded as bachelors when they remarried and why some widows were recorded as spinsters!

CT

[cledry]

Jul 9, 2021 8:10:50 GMT -5 Cornish Terrier said:

If you look at it that way then, theoretically speaking, a John Noall married in 1850 might then be referred to as John Noall the 15th!!

There is no simple answer to the reasons but it may have been that neither of the Johns was related. It might also have been that the Vicar wasn't interested in the details or may have simply forgotten to make the note. Or it may have been there was enough of an age difference between the elder and younger John in this case for it not to matter. (The John who married Margery James would have been up to 15 years older than the one who married Prudence Wall. But you could chase this round in circles for years and get nowhere.

A better question might be why some widowers in later years were recorded as bachelors when they remarried and why some widows were recorded as spinsters!

CT

So you believe that the junior suffix was just added on a whim? It certainly does seem like there is no rhyme or reason. I also note the use of Mr. and Mrs. for one Noall couple, while others at the same time were not. Does this mean some sort of professional status rather than a tinner or farmer (not that they are not professionals as well)?







You mentioned that you had used Wills. Is there a transcript of these Will(s) anywhere online. I would like to include them in my notes.







Has anyone determined where "Leeder, Leader, Leeda" was located in the parish?

[Cornish Terrier]

The Wills are freely available on FamilySearch and you can use the Kresen Kernow site to find details of the registration numbers.

The use of terms like 'Junr.' or 'Senr' is not generally just a 'whim' as you put it. Most times there is a reason and it usually indicates a differentiation between two people of the same name. So in a case where there might be (for example) 2 men named Fred Nurke in the Parish and both baptising children around the same time there children might be referred to as 'child of Fred Nurke junr' if their father was the younger of the two Fred Nurkes. Remember that these men do not necessarily have to be related and in this case the term merely means one is older than the other.

Another similar term is 'elder' or 'younger' which can be found in baptism, marriage and Burial records also. Once again it could refer to father and son, grandfather and grandson, uncle and nephew or, simply, an older and younger person of the same name but not related.

In the case of 'Mr' and 'Mrs' this is slightly different. The meaning here is usually in reference to someone who is well off or perhaps an official (e.g. Mayor).

Leeda, Leda, Liddah, Leader - I tried a couple of months back to determine just where this might be but could not find it on the maps I checked and could find no reference online that described it.

CT

[cledry]

Not that it will help much, but leddra (various spellings) means cliff or slope in Cornish.

I found a few Wills Kresen Kernow and noted the reference numbers. I then looked on FamilySearch but couldn't find any of the Wills, I searched for 8 different ones and nothing. So I must not be searching properly. For example I noted a John Noall - farmer proved 1763 reference AP/N/723. I searched FamilySearch for a John NOALL who died circa 1763.

Could you perhaps give me a tip on how to locate the Wills that are freely available on FamilySearch because I need a little assistance.

[Cornish Terrier]

The link to the Archdeaconry Wills is:-

familysearch.org/search/catalog/329778?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Before clicking on the link you will need to make sure you are logged into FamilySearch. You will first need to have created a Free Account so make sure you have done that and then login and go through the Sign-In process. Once you are signed in you can then open the above link which will open a new FamilySearch window which is then already signed in.

Once you have opened the above link you will be presented with the first of 3 pages of links for the collections of Wills. At the right you will see camera icons which are the links to the images for each set but you will also note that about the first half of page one has a little key above the icons. This signifies that the images are locked and cannot be viewed without visiting a FHC or affiliate.
Don't worry about that as these are not relevant to what you want. And in fact you can skip the entire first page.

Click on the 'Page' right arrow to go to page 2 and the scroll down to the end of the 'Administrations'. Here you will find the beginning of the alphabetical Wills which are grouped A-Z and then divided into subgroups of years and reference numbers. As an example:-

For example I noted a John Noall - farmer proved 1763 reference AP/N/723

You will need to go across to the third page and scroll down to the Wills beginning with 'N'. The '(nos. xxx-xxxx)' are the reference numbers so look for the range that includes '723' in which case it would be:-

Wills, surnames beginning with N (nos. 442-970), 1705-1819.

To double-check you have it right the date range is at the end. So you want Will 723 for the year 1763 which falls in the range '442-970' and '1705-1819'.

Click on the Camera Icon at right and you will see the images set up just like the Parish Registers with Title Boards at the beginning and end of each section. By using these you can navigate to the group of Wills you want.
Also, in most (but not all) cases the first image(s) following the Title Board will be the Index of Wills in that particular group.

Once you have navigated to the section containing Ref 723 just scroll through the images to find the Will itself.

Note that the pages for each Will are not necessarily in order so be sure to check that you get all the pages by viewing images either side.

Now, one helpful thing is that many of the pages have the reference number written on them (e.g. AP/N/723) which helps verify you have the correct Will. Unfortunately this has not been done for every page and then can be several pages in succession without a reference number. This gets really frustrating I can tell you!!!

The next important thing is that you can download the images. You will find the Download button to the right on the menu bar just above the images. Click the download button and then follow the instructions to download each image to your location of choice.

CT

[zibetha]

Hi,

I wonder if this might be the place? -- there was a Park Leeda in St Ives. Here are some references. The lease specifications might help you define the area.

books.google.co.uk/books?id=7hGkBAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=leeda&f=false (See p 24)

kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/88b0a693-94ec-4465-8b58-222dc73cc67f/?tH=%5B%22Leeda%22%5D

The other reference in the Chris Bond Book pulls up at kresenkernow.org/SOAP/search/TA|91/ and is for the Tithe Assessment -- but I don't see any helpful details.

Zib

[cledry]

Jul 11, 2021 13:24:08 GMT -5 zibetha said:

Hi,

I wonder if this might be the place? -- there was a Park Leeda in St Ives. Here are some references. The lease specifications might help you define the area.

books.google.co.uk/books?id=7hGkBAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=leeda&f=false (See p 24)

kresenkernow.org/SOAP/detail/88b0a693-94ec-4465-8b58-222dc73cc67f/?tH=%5B%22Leeda%22%5D

The other reference in the Chris Bond Book pulls up at kresenkernow.org/SOAP/search/TA|91/ and is for the Tithe Assessment -- but I don't see any helpful details.

Zib

Yes, that does indeed help. I was actually surmising it might be near Hellesveor. It gives me something to go on.

[cledry]

Thanks Cornish Terrier. Very useful. I appreciate all the time that you put into your response.

[Cornish Terrier]

Zib - yes, I should think that is it. Well done and good sleuthing.

Cledry - not a problem. I really found out about that link by accident a few years back.

CT

[donne]

I see from the tithe map and 1839 apportionment that there is an area identified as Leeda in Hellesveor, The parcels of land mentioned in the Index of Historical Places (352 & 354) seem to be open fields but parcel 357 nearby, described as "Hellesveor, House, Homestead in the apportionment actually includes a dwelling. In 1839 the lessee was Jane Roberts and the occupier was Samuel Major. If it's of interest, 357 is at OS grid reference SW 50310 40230 (see National Library of Scotland website for georeferenced historic OS maps). Confusingly, there is another parcel of land in the area with the number 357, and that is described as 'Hellesveor, The Meadow' and that is leased by John Noall and occupied by Jane Roberts.