Post by johntanner on Mar 25, 2008 13:20:08 GMT -5
I was interested to see RobOats contribution about the metalworking links with Wales. This appears to come from a transcription that I made a few years ago of all the letters in the series. My interest was in trying to establish the origin of the earliest Grenfells/Grenvilles in St Just in Penwith, not of understanding the metal industries. I wrote a note, which included all the letters, but which is probably too long for this forum, in which I concluded that these Grenvilles may have been illegitimate children of Richard Grenville of Penheale. The activities of this John Oates formed an important part of my argument.
If anyone wants to pursue the Grenville connection, or is just interested in seeing the full transcriptions, I shall be happy to email a copy of my note. Email me at jctanner at ukgateway.net
Sorry, this is nothing to do with the Spanish connection!
Hi there John. I have kept the documents you sent relating to Grenfell/Oats on the back-burner for some years. I have still not been able to tie John and William to later families. I still live in hope that a document may arise at some stage.
On the subject of Marazion and its possible links to tin trading with the Phoenician period; one possible explanation of the name is Mare is sea or ocean in Latin and Zion is the ancient biblical name of Palestine or Israel. So the derivation may be Zion over the the Sea or ocean. It is also interesting that there is a ancient market, MarketJew and also Jew Street leading to Penzance. From Wikipaedia ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marazion );
The charter attributed to Robert, Count of Mortain granted lands and liberties to St Michael's Mount opposite Marazion and included a market on Thursdays. This appears to have been held from the first on the mainland. From it is probably derived the Marghasbigan (Parvum Forum) of the earlier and the Marghasyewe or Marketjew (Forum Jovis) of the later charters. It may be added that a Jewish origin has been ascribed to the place from the name Marketjew.
A very interesting report from RobOats concerning the rise of the Bronze Age in Britain. I have a question... I am no metallurgist, but is it possible to determine which metal in an amalgam of metals such as bronze, came from which geographical location? Rob says that the tests show that the copper came from Cornwall. I understood that the tin came from Cornwall and the copper from the Great Orme. That would make sense. Why take Cornish copper to a site where copper was mined to be smelted together with tin also brought from Cornwall?
Regarding the 'Spanish' controversy. I have an essay written by a relative the Rev Edward Holme about his childhood in Cumberland to where his mother had emigrated from Cornwall back in the 1890's....
..."I may not have said that all my mother's parent's family were musicians more or less, which meant that family reunions were something. I must explain that it was chiefly Cornish. Yes, here was a Cornish family up there in Cumberland. But not so strange, for ours was something of a Cornish town. My grandparents had uprooted their family when my mother was a girl at school, taking with them and their possessions what must have been a frightening experience, a journey which I believe took three days and three nights, and to what must have seemed almost a foreign land. Indeed when they arrived, due to their black hair and incomprehensible speech, they were taken for Spanish immigrants"....(Extract from 'Our Family Gatherings' by Rev Edward Holme)
By the way Rob, the 'Grandma' of the family was an Oats!
Last Edit: Mar 26, 2008 10:08:29 GMT -5 by tonymitch
I am no metallurgist, but is it possible to determine which metal in an amalgam of metals such as bronze, came from which geographical location? Rob says that the tests show that the copper came from Cornwall. I understood that the tin came from Cornwall and the copper from the Great Orme. That would make sense. Why take Cornish copper to a site where copper was mined to be smelted together with tin also brought from Cornwall?
A very new technique in mapping minerals by trace element has been developed and deployed in the last 10 years or so. Basically minerals are never pure, no matter how good the refining technique and there are always trace elements present. The proportion and type of trace element present can determine where the mineral came from. Geologists are mapping the world and compiling a database of minerals and their markers. The first time I heard of this was in the mid '90's when they were doing work on the remains of Amesbury Man in Wiltshire and they could determine that he was born and grew up in Austria from the composition of his teeth and bones. He was therefore, a true Celt.
The paper on the Castell artefacts indicates that the tin was from Cornwall and Copper from Great Orme. The significance of the find is deeper than most people realise. Our perception and approach to British History has been tainted by the writings of Caesar who, like all good leaders, liked to believe that the only good things that happened in history happened because of and from Roman civilisation.They forgot that much of their civilisation was an evolution of previous civilisation in Greece and Phoenicia. The manufacture of bronze weapons of this type and composition at this time in an apparent vacuum is seemingly impossible. The degree of knowledge of metallurgy and and refining metals is remarkable. It is even more remarkable if we are to believe Roman writings that the people here, 2000 years later, were uncivilised, ignorant savages.
The findings indicate a high degree of industrial skill, co-operative engagement over a considerable area. These developments may not be restricted to the British Isles and may indicate co-operative engagement with metallurgists in the Middle East as well. Such interaction is never restricted to a single channel (metallurgy) and would have been cultural as well.
We perceive populations living in small isolated communities. Here we see much wider engagement than could ever be imagined at this time.
The article specifically mentions that there was no apparent wealth generation in the area despite the advanced technological skills. I am theorising that we had the more advanced Phoenician metal traders (perhaps even later, Joseph of Aramithea) establishing trading settlements in Marazion to ensure a steady flow of product out of this region. They looked after the distribution downstream in Europe and the Middle East. Perhaps in due course as they analyse Bronze implements and weapons in this region we will have an idea how widespread the products of Wales/Cornwall really were. If they established a trading base it is also possible that the people at this base also inter-married with local families.
Touching mettals: Copper is found in sundrie places, but with what gaine to the searchers, I haue not beene curious to enquire, nor they hastie to reueale. For at one Mine (of which I tooke view) the Owre was shipped to bee refined in Wales, either to saue cost in the fewell or to conceale the profit
And as the Cornish names hold an affinity with the Welsh, so is their language deduced from the same source, and differeth onely in the dialect. But the Cornish is more easie to bee pronounced, and not so vnpleasing in sound, with throat letters, as the Welsh.
Please note that not all Welsh sounds the same. The North Wales accent is entirely different to the softer South Wales one. Remember the amazing voice of Richard Burton and also Anthony Hopkins. Also have a listen to a Welsh choir although I must admit that the Cornish ones I have heard compare quite well. This from someone of Cornish/Welsh and a smattering of Yorkshire ancestry.
Quite correct, there are different dialects in the Welsh language as in any other. ..."the spoken language also differs from area to area. Indeed a brook seems a sufficient barrier to create divergence in expression between the inhabitants on either side"...(Henry Lewis). What is a 'Welsh Accent'? Try listening to a 'Boyoh' from the Valleys to the nasal twang of someone from Anglsey. In my part of Wales, it is difficult to differentiate beween a Welsh speaker and a Scouser. In the Welsh language there is also a difference between North and South Welsh. For example..Grandmother is either Mam-gu or Nain. Pronounciation is different too. The 'u' is pronounced in the North rather like the German 'eu' with a diphtong sound, whilst in the South as 'ee' or 'i', so in any Welsh Gangster Movie, "FFerru...Heddlu Gogledd Cymru" sounds entirely different in either North or South Wales speak. (English translation would roughly correspond to "Freeze...North Wales Police")
Off at a slight tangent.....Marketjew. I understood that the name came from the Cornish 'Marghas' = market....and 'yow' = Thursday (The Welsh being 'Marchnad' and 'Iau') Thus 'Marketjew' is a corruption of Thursday Market.