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Post by celticmom on Aug 11, 2020 17:01:46 GMT -5
I have the baptism of Joseph in 1744 in St Just Penwith father is James, but I can't find any other children to James or his marriage of his baptism.
I believe James originally may of come from Breage, as by dna matches its likely his parents are John Goninan and Thomasin Willyams and John's parents are Richard and Mary
Any help appreciated, this name has many variations and well as an Alias Penhalle prior to Goninnan it seems.
Thanks
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 11, 2020 17:26:52 GMT -5
Hello 'celticmom' and Welcome to Penwith Genealogy. This is certainly a very tricky problem with absolutely nothing to be found on James Goninan (sic.) outside his name as parent to Joseph in 1744. There is, as you say, no marriage for him, no sign of a baptism for him, no further children for him, no death or burial for a wife and no death or burial for himself. And I have also had a quick check and it appears there is also no Will for this man!! The only other family of this name at St Just during that period was a Richard Goninan who baptised several children at St Just and there appears to have been an Edward whose wife was buried at St Just but nothing that seems to link to your Joseph. The only other information I have is from 'A Handbook of Cornish Surnames' by G. Pawley White and reads as follows:- GONINAN - From ke-onnen: hedge of ash trees. Accent is on 'in'. Place name Tregonnan, Mawgan in Pydar.ON the face of it this does not appear to help at all but at the very least it might offer something else to look at which might lead to something more helpful. Sorry I cannot be of more immediate help. CT
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Post by celticmom on Aug 12, 2020 10:16:18 GMT -5
I wondered if it maybe might be John instead of James, that seems a more used first name lol. I guess id have to try and obtain the actual image to see if there is any discretion on what the first name is. I just wondered if maybe it's badly transcribed because its not very readable (clutching at straws). Does anyone know how id obtain the actual image? I live in Canada. Thanks
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Post by celticmom on Aug 12, 2020 10:19:06 GMT -5
there is Richard GONINNAN born 1740 parents John and Loveday - wonder if maybe John is James?
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Post by celticmom on Aug 12, 2020 10:22:32 GMT -5
John and Loveday are the only Goninan couple having children in Breage at that time, I am thinking it has to be John (not James) - for the sheer fact James doesn't appear to exist. What do you think?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 12, 2020 20:08:54 GMT -5
The entries in both the St Just Parish Register and the Bishops Transcripts are both quite clear and there can be no mistake - 15th May 1744 Joseph son of James Gorninnen baptised. The one 'out' is the fact that we can not rule out the possibility that the Vicar made an error in filling out the register. The fact that the entry is exactly the same in the Bishops Transcripts merely indicates that it was copied correctly at the time. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 12, 2020 20:20:04 GMT -5
Does anyone know how id obtain the actual image? I live in Canada. There is no problem viewing the St Just registers as they are available on FamilySearch in the collection - For your convenience in this case here is the link to the image you are interested in:- England, Cornwall Parish Registers, 1538-2010www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DYXS-1K4?i=170&cc=1769414&cat=44122And this following link will take you directly to the home page for the Cornwall collection:- www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1769414When you get to this page look for the link at the bottom of the page as shown here and then click on 'Browse through 202,325 images' (but do not click on the link from this page as it does not work from here) View Images in this Collection Browse through 202,325 imagesCiting this Collection "England, Cornwall Parish Registers, 1538-2010." Database with images. FamilySearch. FamilySearch.org : 11 August 2020. Cornwall Records Office, Truro. After you click on the link you will have to select either 'Cornwall' or 'Devon' so just select 'Cornwall' and you will be taken to another page with links to all the Cornwall Parishes. Scroll to St Just in Penwith (or Breage or .....)and have fun. CT
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Post by celticmom on Aug 13, 2020 10:51:09 GMT -5
wow thank you I didn't actually realize all the images were on family search. I did find some on there, but often find it difficult to navigate but this is great.
So it definitely says James, but do we agree his father is likely John with wife Loveday? I suppose I could check my dna matches for lovedays surname and see if I can connect to her tree.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 13, 2020 12:45:46 GMT -5
On the available evidence I would certainly not be willing to 'jump in' and say that Joseph's father was John.
Remember that there was a Richard Goninen (sic.) who baptised two daughters at St Just in 1734 and 1735 - this would be Richard Goninan and Ann Rawlings who married at St Just in 1833. There may also be a son John in 1741 whose surname in the OPC has been transcribed as 'Gennena' (in the BTs it is written as 'Gendeena') and then there is definitely another son Edward in 1848 followed by Peter and William in 1756.
CT
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Post by celticmom on Aug 13, 2020 19:32:36 GMT -5
On the available evidence I would certainly not be willing to 'jump in' and say that Joseph's father was John. Remember that there was a Richard Goninen (sic.) who baptised two daughters at St Just in 1734 and 1735 - this would be Richard Goninan and Ann Rawlings who married at St Just in 1833. There may also be a son John in 1741 whose surname in the OPC has been transcribed as 'Gennena' (in the BTs it is written as 'Gendeena') and then there is definitely another son Edward in 1848 followed by Peter and William in 1756. CT Sorry I am confused by the above and Joseph/James?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 14, 2020 6:55:49 GMT -5
I am not sure that I understand what you are confused about here. But never mind, if I understand you correctly then you are suggesting that Joseph Goninan was the son of John and Lovedaly Goninan from Breage and that the name of his father being 'James' in the St Just register is incorrect. If that is the case then I can see why you might thing that given what we have (or have not) found in regards to any James Goninan. However, there is one important point to consider - and that is that there was a Richard Goninan baptising children at St Just around the time Joseph was baptised. From that it is important to consider the fact that Joseph Goninan was married at St Just and appears to have spent all his life there. With that in mind it is also important to note that John and Loveday Goninan do not appear to have moved from the Breage area having baptised all their children there. Loveday appears to have been buried at Breage in 1781 and John possibly at Crowan or, more likely, at Perranuthnoe in 1795 with both Parishes adjoining Breage. Also of note is that Joseph appears to have had two daughters with one named for his wife Jane Eddy. You surmise that Joseph was actually the son of John and Loveday yet the other daughter was named Mary!! On the other hand I think it may be more likely that Joseph was another child of Richard and Ann Goninan who were certainly at St Just. That scenario makes much more sense to me right now based on all the available information even though that second daughter was not named Ann either. As far as your DNA problem is concerned it makes little difference as Richard Goninan was most likely from the Breage area originally also. CT
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Post by celticmom on Aug 14, 2020 7:47:46 GMT -5
I am not sure that I understand what you are confused about here. But never mind, if I understand you correctly then you are suggesting that Joseph Goninan was the son of John and Lovedaly Goninan from Breage and that the name of his father being 'James' in the St Just register is incorrect. If that is the case then I can see why you might thing that given what we have (or have not) found in regards to any James Goninan. However, there is one important point to consider - and that is that there was a Richard Goninan baptising children at St Just around the time Joseph was baptised. From that it is important to consider the fact that Joseph Goninan was married at St Just and appears to have spent all his life there. With that in mind it is also important to note that John and Loveday Goninan do not appear to have moved from the Breage area having baptised all their children there. Loveday appears to have been buried at Breage in 1781 and John possibly at Crowan or, more likely, at Perranuthnoe in 1795 with both Parishes adjoining Breage. Also of note is that Joseph appears to have had two daughters with one named for his wife Jane Eddy. You surmise that Joseph was actually the son of John and Loveday yet the other daughter was named Mary!! On the other hand I think it may be more likely that Joseph was another child of Richard and Ann Goninan who were certainly at St Just. That scenario makes much more sense to me right now based on all the available information even though that second daughter was not named Ann either. As far as your DNA problem is concerned it makes little difference as Richard Goninan was most likely from the Breage area originally also. CT I’m get you now, sorry my error as I’ve been looking at so many Goninnan now I forget Joseph was born at St Just and was looking at breage thinking he was baptized there. Yep I agree that Richard and Ann are more likely as his parents. Need to try and plot the mother’s side into my dna matches if I can. Richard must be the son of John and Thomasin Willyms. I think I was looking at other first names staring with J and got sidetracked by that when I should of been looking in St Just. Thanks
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 14, 2020 20:53:42 GMT -5
That's okay - this forum is all about discussing problems and (hopefully) finding solutions. So with that in mind I will throw something else at you to think about! You are dealing with a surname that is not overly common and you are dealing with people of that surname who are in St Just but have probable links back to Breage. You are also dealing with forenames common to the families in both Parishes so when you start looking at possible parents you really do need to be aware of that fact. In this case you are looking at the name Richard Goninan and already you have latched onto John and Thomasine Goninan of Breage as 'must be' parents. The point I am getting at is that there is ANOTHER Richard at Breage baptising children in the 1730s so already you have a problem. From the OPC records you have two possible sets of parents:- 1. Edward Goninan and Annie Stephens who married at Breage in 1695 - their son Richard baptised at Breage in 1707 2. John Gonynan and Thomasin Willyams who married at Breage in 1699 - their son Richard baptised at Breage in 1703 A bit of work will need to be done before you can be at all sure of which is which and who belongs where! CT
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Post by celticmom on Aug 15, 2020 10:25:47 GMT -5
For such a rare name they are certainly giving me a headache, especially with the alias Penhall
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Post by celticmom on Aug 15, 2020 11:37:17 GMT -5
I think you are correct, Joseph he has to be the son of Richard and Anne as there is no other Goninnans in St Just at that time. Why Richard ended up being written down as James who knows. But now to work out Richards parents.
I believed I descended from John and Thomasin, I am sure I have DNA matches to her side. But with Richard naming a son Edward you would think his father is Edwards. So I need to look at his wife and my DNA matches I think.
Any ideas for Anne Rawlings baptism, there are some in St Just and some out. I do have DNA matches to Rawlings In Uny Lelant, but a little further back than when Anne would of been born.
So confusing and proving hard despite the rare name due to different spelllings and the alias Penhall. I wonder where they came from originally? Before Cornwall. Goninnan doesn’t sound particularly English but Penhall maybe does. Why the change in names?
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