John Berryman and Elizabeth Veale

[viking]

Hi everyone.

I have several DNA matches to descendants of John Berryman, born abt 1616, died 1680, Westmoreland Co., Virginia. In "Burke's Distinguished Families of America" it says, "JOHN BERRYMAN, the Founder of this family in America, was a Royalist, who emigrated from England after the execution of Charles I [1649], and settled in Westmoreland County, Virginia..."

Also through DNA matches, I've discovered my Berrymans came from Cornwall. I noticed there was a John Berryman (b. 1586, Zennor) and wife Elizabeth Veale (b. 1590, Gulval) who some of my DNA matches descend from. And then found that I had matches that descend from Elizabeth's siblings, Christopher and Joan Veale. So at this point, John and Elizabeth are my prime suspects for being my John of Virginia's parents.

I haven't found any verification, though. Several people have this couple being the parents of a John being born about 1616, but they never give sources. Haven't found any parish records for him, however they could have been lost to damage. Elizabeth's will (1678) mentions her son Nicholas, but no John. But that's not surprising if her son John had been living in the colonies for years.

So I thought I'd ask here if anyone is familiar with John and Elizabeth's family, and if they had a son John. Logic would suggest they did, but would really love to find some proof.

Thank you very much in advance.

[trencrom]

May 25, 2020 6:55:56 GMT -5 viking said:

Hi everyone.

I have several DNA matches to descendants of John Berryman, born abt 1616, died 1680, Westmoreland Co., Virginia. In "Burke's Distinguished Families of America" it says, "JOHN BERRYMAN, the Founder of this family in America, was a Royalist, who emigrated from England after the execution of Charles I [1649], and settled in Westmoreland County, Virginia..."

Also through DNA matches, I've discovered my Berrymans came from Cornwall. I noticed there was a John Berryman (b. 1586, Zennor) and wife Elizabeth Veale (b. 1590, Gulval) who some of my DNA matches descend from. And then found that I had matches that descend from Elizabeth's siblings, Christopher and Joan Veale. So at this point, John and Elizabeth are my prime suspects for being my John of Virginia's parents.

I haven't found any verification, though. Several people have this couple being the parents of a John being born about 1616, but they never give sources. Haven't found any parish records for him, however they could have been lost to damage. Elizabeth's will (1678) mentions her son Nicholas, but no John. But that's not surprising if her son John had been living in the colonies for years.

So I thought I'd ask here if anyone is familiar with John and Elizabeth's family, and if they had a son John. Logic would suggest they did, but would really love to find some proof.

Thank you very much in advance.

Hi Viking,

I am familiar with the family, and have researched them. John and Elizabeth are my 10x great-grandparents. I also have a descent from Christopher.


Firstly, some corrections need to be made here.

The dates of birth for John and Elizabeth of 1586 and 1590 respectively appear from memory on a number of online family trees, but they are completely speculative. There is no evidence at all for them. They appear to been based purely on a presumption that Elizabeth would have married at 21 years of age and that John at the time would have been a few years older than that. The fact is that we do not have christening records for either of them (the surviving records for Zennor and for Gulval do not even go back that far!), and we do not know how old they were at marriage, or indeed at any other stage in their lives either.

Christopher's relationship to Elizabeth is not precisely known and on chronological grounds he is unlikely to be her brother (too old).

The first legible entry in the surviving Zennor parish register is from 1618 and relates to the birth of Nicholas Berriman.


Secondly, to answer your question: I know of no evidence for a son John being born around two years earlier. John Berriman the father died young and Elizabeth remarried to John Upcott as you know, so there may not have been a son John Berriman at all, that being the case.

How did the DNA matches pinpoint precise ancestors that far back? I was under the impression that autosomal DNA (unlike Y-chromosome or mtDNA) did not allow identification of ancestors further back than 4x great-grandparent level (by all means correct me if I am wrong about that last point).

My observation has been that in this part of Cornwall you find lots of people having more than one ancestral connection to each other. Common autosomal DNA could therefore have come from more than just the one potential source.

If your John did not emigrate to America until 1649 then he should appear in the Protestation Returns from eight or so years earlier. You may therefore want to check these to see where and how many John Berrimans were in England at the time.

Trencrom

[Cornish Terrier]

I agree with Trencrom on this one and would suggest that, based on the few pieces of evidence I have, there was no son named John to John and Elizabeth (Veale) Berryman of Zennor.

John Berryman and Elizabeth Veale were married at Gulval 23rd June 1611 and John was deceased by October of 1625 as his widow Elizabeth was married to John Upcote on October 10th 1625. From the Will of Elizabeth Upcote of Zennor dated 11th May 1678 there are four known children:-

1. son Nicholas who was to receive 10 Pounds payable in two instalments plus a feather bed and various articles of bedding.
2. 'Jane Donithorne my daughter' - she married William Donithorne 16th February 1632 at Gulval and in a later bequest her children are named in Elizabeth Upcote's Will.
3. Ane Lymbery to receive 20 shillings - not named as a daughter but a later bequest infers her as such - 'to each child of William Lymbrey one shilling'
4. Elizabeth named her son in law John Lymbrey as Executor (John Limbrey and Margery Berriman were marryed ye last day of Aprill 1649)

So the four known children are:-
Jane who was baptized at Gulval 23rd March 1613
Nicholas who (according to J H Hobson Matthews) was born at Zennor in 1618
Anne (born sometime before 1625 and inferred as daughter in the Will) who appears to have married William Lymbrey
Margery (born sometime before 1625) - married John Limbrey at Zennor 30th April 1649

There is no suggestion in the Will of any other children.

1641 Protestation Returns for Zennor - the only Berryman (sic.) names appearing at Zennor in 1641 were Nicholas Beryman (Churchwarden) and Arthur Berryman. From the transcribed Returns for Cornwall on the OPC site there were but two John Berryman's of age 18 or over in Cornwall in 1641 - John Berriman at Madron and John Beryman at Paul. I do not have any information to hand at the moment about John Berriman at Madron but John Beryman at Paul died in Cornwall in 1709 having left a Will.

CT