Mary b1834 and Elizabeth b1841 Curnow from Nancedden

[amy30]

Hi Everyone

I have followed many of the threads on this site and love the passion and depth of knowledge of many of the contributors. One such thread helped me clear a doubt I had over another tree I had seen regarding the parents of Alice Rowe who married Hannibal Curnow. I knew that her father was more likely to John Row.

My husband Stephen's ancestors on his mother's side are Curnows descended from Hannibal Curnow and Alice Rowe.

Thomas and Jane Curnow migrated to South Australia in 1865 with their younger children- Richard, Alice and Thomas. I believe their eldest son John may have migrated to Australia separately a year earlier. The latter Thomas had a son Thomas Henry - Stephen's grandfather.

My current interest is in what happened to the older daughters Mary b1834 and Elizabeth b1841. They may have already been married by the time the family left Cornwall. I believe both were tailoresses or at least apprentices.

My curiosity is whether they remained in Cornwall or if they migrated under their married names. Is there anyone out there who has the answer?

I look forward to the information and discussion that this query may elicit.

Thank you.
Asha

[zibetha]

Hi, Amy,
Glad to see you have signed on. There are many Curnow family members here and lots of posts you can access. Your husband has cousins here!

Zib

[amy30]

Hi Zib

Thank you. Nancedden was truncated in the title so the query looks broader than I intended. I have now edited the subject.

I have looked at many of the threads here which mention Mary and/or Elizabeth Curnow but none seem to match this family at least as far as I can tell.

The Curnow family that migrated on the Queen Bee are the ones of interest. They were living in Nancedden in the 1861 census. By then Mary was no longer living with them. I presume she was married by then.

There is a lot of misinformation around. Many trees have incorrectly connected this family to another family ie Thomas Curnow and Jane Grenfell. I do not know the parents of this Jane Curnow but from what I know she she was a Curnow before marriage and not a Grenfell.

This Penwith group seem to be pretty thorough in their research so I figured this us the best place to ask.

At this point I just want to find out if these daughters also came to Australia. I have no doubt there are Curnow Cousins everywhere.

In 1991/1992 my family had a book called Curnow Cousins by Norma Curnow that documented the Curnows in Australia. Don't know where it is now. There should be a copy in the National Library of Australia in Canberra for perusal. The most famous Curnow (to me anyway) was a Thomas Curnow in Victoria whose bravery thwarted the Ned Kelly Gang from attacking a train.

Anyway searching for particular Curnows is like looking for a needle in a haystack. The search is the main thing. Finding is the bonus.

Hope the Nancedden link will be helpful to someone out there who has infirnatuin on this family.

Kind regards
Asha

[zibetha]

Hi, Asha,

I am not a Curnow expert by any means, but I have tracked a few lines that intersect with my family. I have Mary Jane Curnow married to John Pearce as their daughter, Alice White Pearce, and husband William Curnow Sampson came to Michigan. I am a Sampson researcher and suspect his line and mine are linked, but I can't get there yet! I am hoping DNA will save the day. I think I am distantly related to Mary Jane via the Quick family.

Last sign I have of Mary Jane is possibly on the 1911 Census as a widow in Ludgvan-- but then I am "missing" her on the two previous ones. I guess I have some work to do. The last record I have for Elizabeth is the 1861 Census.

Zib

[zibetha]

I am waiting for Sue to set me straight on this

[amy30]

Hi Zib

That is fantastic! Thank you. I looked them up and found Mary and John Pearce living in Nancedden in the 1871 census. Her age of 37 matches her 1834 birth and the children's names of Thomas and Alice match. No Jane though or maybe not yet.

So what happened to Elizabeth? She would have been 29/30 in 1871 depending on what month it was taken. There are no Elizabeths who match her age still living in Nancedden in 1871. I suspect she would have moved away between 1861 and when the family migrated in 1865.

We keep looking.

Cheers
Asha

[zibetha]

Asha,

I am sorry, but this is not a family I research. My thinking re: Elizabeth is that she was young and healthy and probably married someone which would generate a name change. I would look Cornwall, Australia or the USA.

We do keep looking, and we find each other.

Zib

[amy30]

Hi Zib

Thank you for your help. By the way,
I did not mean 'we' as in you and me. It was a general we as in all those seeking info. And if along the way we find each other as you eloquently stated, that is fantastic.

I am still hoping some others who have an interest in this Curnow family may come in with responses. Who knows they may be descendents of Elizabeth!


I had another look at the Census records and looks like the 1841 census records are a little skewy. The 1841 census had Jane Curnow as 20. With a daughter aged 7 that was highly unlikely. In 1851 she was shown as 35 and Thomas 38. That would be more accurate. So even the census data can be misleading without double and triple checking.

Hope there are others on this platform who are researching this family and that they will reply at some point.

All the best with your Sampson search. If I see anything during my haystack sifting re a Sampson connection I will pass it on. Is there a particular missing link that you are after?

Cheers
Asha

[zibetha]

Thanks, Asha,

We are all working things out here. Welcome to the conversation! I enjoy the help of Cornish experts and besides my own lines have chosen to focus on the Cornish in the Midwest where I live and in South America as I am bilingual and degreed in Spanish. I love pulling us together.

Zib

[zibetha]

Thank you for asking about my Sampson line. I've been thinking about it lately in view of recent posts. I am back to being twice related to Richard Sampson and Ruth Nichols of Helston. I've gotten a bit further with Ruth's family. Their son, Richard, married Alice Carter, and they are buried at Lelant. I am trying to work all my lines back to seventh great-grandparents for DNA matching purposes. It is going pretty well.

Zib

[sue]

Hi Asha, & welcome.

I know a thing or two about Curnows, yes. 

So, you are looking at this because your husband is descended from Thomas Rowe Curnow, baptized Ludgvan, Cornwall 22 January 1854, emigrated with some siblings & parents on Queen Bee 1864 arrived 10 March 1865, married Blanche Woodhead 1 March 1879 Adelaide of Mundoora S Aus, had various children including Thomas Henry Curnow 1885, and (Thomas Rowe Curnow) died 3 July 1886 Port Wakefield South Aus. Yes?

Thomas Rowe Curnow’s much older 1st sister Mary Jane Curnow was baptized 22 June 1835 Ludgvan, and married 9 September 1854 Ludgvan with her maternal aunt & her husband as witnesses, Elizabeth & William George.  Mary Jane’s spouse was John Pearce, a miner son of James.   Zib has already covered this - thanks Zib! 

Thomas Rowe Curnow’s sister Elizabeth 11 August 1841 baptized 3 October 1849 Ludgvan, 1851 at home 1861 tailoress at home, married Nichoas Robyns ROWE 16 August 1863 at Penzance – he a smith, son of Henry age 22, Elizabeth at that time of Penzance age 21 son of Thomas .
1871 Elizabeth appears in the census born Ludgvan age 28 with children Leonora, Frederick & Edith; 1881 age 39.

You will want to check all this out for yourself in the online records of births, baptisms, marriages etc. etc. so that you can satisfy yourself that the above is indeed the case.

I – with much help from CT - spent much time some years ago differentiating between the many Curnows who kept using popular 1st names for their children & having them/marrying them off around the same time, to give us researching nowadays back in time a bit of a challenge!

“ I do not know the parents of this Jane Curnow but from what I know she she was a Curnow before marriage and not a Grenfell.” Thomas Curnow & Jane Grenfell are a red herring and not part of the family you are looking at. Rely not on other people’s trees – I’m sure you have learned that! - always go for original records, and painstakingly eliminate other possible candidates by finding their other, actual lives/families. It isn’t quite “looking for a needle in a haystack” (although sometimes it feels like it! ), it’s applying logic whilst studying all available facts in actual records, and piecing together the many, many parts of a big jigsaw puzzle!
As to the identity of Jane Curnow mother of Thomas Rowe Curnow: I see I have given it away in the paragraph below, if you follow the details through in the online baptism & marriage records....

Re 1841 census entries: remember that adults' ages were rounded down to the nearest 5 years – so Jane Curnow mother of Thomas Rowe Curnow would/should have been c. 25, so viable they deducted 5 years for the census record (even thought that census date was 6 June 1841), what with her being baptized 17 March 1816. People were not spot-on in the ages given to the enumerator…….

Hope that helps a bit... 

Sue

[amy30]

Hi Sue

Thank you for the marvelous information.

My husband Stephen is the son of Beryl Curnow daughter of Thomas Henry Curnow, son of Thomas Rowe Curnow. Are you connected to this family?

Now I know that Mary and Elizabeth did not migrate to Australia. Question resolved. 🙂

My feeling is that John did migrate prior to his parents. Do you have any information on that?

I did know that Jane Curnow was a Curnow before being married. As I mentioned earlier there is a 1991 book called "Curnow Cousins" by Norma Curnow about the Curnows in Australia and she had that recorded. Unfortunately I do not have access to this book now but there is a copy in the National Library of Australia.

It is frustrating that some people online had been confusing this Jane with Jane Grenfell.

I do tend to look at primary sources for confirmation. Witnesses to marriages are a clue as it was in the case of Alice Rowe. One of the trees I looked at had listed her under different parents. She had John Row and John Rowe Jnr as her witnesses suggesting John Row as her father. Posts on this forum elped me confirm this and I made sure my records were correct.

Thank you so much for your time in sharing the information particularly about the 1841 Census and how ages were rounded. No wonder there is so much confusion!

All the best
Asha

[sue]

No, this is not my Curnow line - in fact the Jane Grenfell~Thomas Curnow marriage is closer to my line, which is why I knew without checking my records that anyone quoting Jane Grenfell as being the married Jane Curnow on the Queen Bee 1864 is mistaken! Jane Grenfell married Thomas Curnow brother of my GGGGfather. That Thomas & Jane were a little older than your Thomas & Jane, (although they had children right through to 1846), stayed in Nancledra on the edge of Towednack, just across from Ludgvan, and were buried Towednack in the 1880s.

The Thomas Curnow schoolmaster involved in the Ned Kelly business descended from the Curnow line over at Gwennap, as I recall.

Back to your Thomas Curnow 1813 and his wife Jane Curnow 1816: their 2nd attempt at a son John, baptized September 1839, was in the Cornwall census 1851/1861, then is no longer in England by 1871. My research never conclusively pinned him down, bu my notes say he may well be the single miner John Curnow age 25 on board the Tarquin just a slight while earlier, as it departed Plymouth 20 August 1864, arriving Port Adelaide 13 December 1864. (The Queen Bee voyage was 14 November 1864 to 10 March 1865.) There is no more obvious candidate to be the John Curnow age 25 in 1864 who is not elsewhere accounted for, as I recall.

I have a vague recollection that I may have found a possible reference to a John Curnow of this age post 1864 in Australian records - in the newspapers on TROVE it would have been I think... but it was only a possibility and ages are not generally given in most TROVE articles.

I take my hat off to the work of people like Norma Curnow in Australia and Bill Curnow in the U.S. in the 1990s, when records were not searchable on line but rather needed to be transcribed from original documents held in archives, old newspapers, family letters and notes etc. These days we have the benefit of so much easier access to records, and with the help of superb researchers like CT we have been able to firm up or prove mistaken some of the conclusions those early researchers came to about family links. So, keep searching those Australian records available on line, be it burials, references in newspapers in the TROVE collection or similar, and you just may find out what became of John Curnow 1839 son of Thomas & Jane!

Sue

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi All - I don't have much time at the moment but I can offer something for you to think about regarding John Curnow (1839) son of Thomas Curnow and Jane Curnow. (This is the second John Curnow mentioned by Sue in her last post.)

I am 'reasonably' comfortable with this John being the John Curnow who married Mary Ann Jemima OPPY in Victoria in 1869. Her birth was registered at Collingwood, in inner Melbourne Suburb, in 1853 to parents James Oppy and Mary Ann Dodge.

John Curnow died at Congupna in Victoria 23rd May 1893 at the age of 50 and left a Will which may or may not be in my possession. This is a case of 'I probably do have the Will but I'm not sure right now'!

There were five children born in Victoria - Thomas James (1870-1870), Thomas John (1871-1919), James (1874-1949), Richard (1876-1877) and Lily (1884-1976).

Sometime after John's death his widow and at least two children moved to Western Australia. Mary Curnow age 68 wife of the late John Curnow of Shepparton Victoria died 10th November 1921at Wagin, WA and was buried in the Darkan Cemetery.
Son James married Sophia Ellen Gibbs at Bulading, WA in 1907 and and had 12 children. He died at Armadale, WA in 1949 and was also buried in Darkan Cemetery.
Daughter Lily married William James Wunnenberg at Woolgar near Yunndaga, WA in 1900 and died at Maddington, WA in 1976. (Burial place not known at this stage)

I don't know if Thomas John also went to WA but he was married twice in Victoria - firstly in 1897 to Lilly Beatrice Herbert and then again in 1902 to Lilly's sister Emma Mary Herbert. Thomas John Curnow died at Guildford Hospital in Shepparton in 1919 after which Emma married Richard Anstis in Adelaide, SA. Thomas Curnow was the father of five children.

I realise his age at death puts John Curnow's birth around 1843 but he was a long way from 'home' and his mother and nearest siblings I think were all in South Australia. But it is also helpful that the Indexed death entry shows his parents as 'Thomas and Jane Curnow'.

CT

[sue]

For not "much time at the moment" that's pretty comprehensive CT!

John Curnow 1840 son of "the other" Thomas Curnow who married Jane Grenfell, also chose to leave England, possibly also 1864+ as there is a gap in his children between last born in England 1864, next one (I think) years later in 1872, Massachusetts. At least, I am fairly certain that I have sent the right Johns to Australia & the U.S. respectively!

I did not then have another John that fitted the bill for the 1864 Tarquin emigration, and then looking at the marriage to Mary Ann Oppy and them using the fathers' names from both sides of the family plus his own, to then name the next son Richard, John's brother's name, is a good indication.

Regarding John's age recorded at death indicating a 1843 birth - well, (assuming it's him) John was 30 when he married a 16 year-old in 1869, so it's not surprising if he fibbed & knocked a few years off!

I am sure Asha will really appreciate this input, as I do - thanks!

Sue