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Post by stonefamily on Aug 7, 2019 13:31:21 GMT -5
My great aunt Florence Lilian Stone b. 1898 in St.Buryan was listed as an inmate in the Madron workhouse in 1939, she was then around 59 years old. Since the records after 1939 are not online, I have been unable to trace her beyond that year. I cannot find a death cert and she is not listed on Find A Grave. Her family said she disappeared, she did marry but I do not know his name. She had a daughter named Jenny but even she did not know what happened to her mother. I am wondering if she died in the work house. Where would she have been buried if that was the case? Any help would be appreciated. She is a big mystery to the family.
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Post by sue on Aug 7, 2019 14:16:58 GMT -5
Hi I see a baptism record for a Florence Lilian Stone 23 February 1900 St Buryan, to mother Sarah Beatrice Stone. (www.cornwall-opc-database.org) In 1901 census I see this Florence age 3 resident with her grandparents, mother & presumably sister Mehetable (?) in St Buryan. (FamilySearch) In 1911 Florence is Florrie, still with grandparents & mother in St Buryan, plus various siblings. (FamilySearch) Now, that would make Florence age 40+ in the 1939 census, not 59. So, have I got the right Florence? I thought it best to check with you, before pursuing various possibilities for a marriage/emigration/death. (For example, there is a possible marriage Trowbridge, Wiltshire to a Fredrick Crook, then a Florence Lilian Crook death December Qtr 1970 in the Brighton Reg district, birth date given as 6 October 1896..... then a possible Green marriage in Southampton with possible corresponding deaths also with a 1896 birth.... ) (FreeBMD) Do you know Florence's precise date of birth? Do you have a birth certificate for her? The record I can see the preview of in 1939 Madron shows a Florence Stone born 1898, Public Assistant Madron. (FindMyPast) I am guessing that daughter Jenny you refer to was brought up not by her mother and was born before 1939, hence said daughter not knowing what happened to her mother, other than a vague, she married, she disappeared... If you could just confirm this, it would help. Thanks. Sue
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Post by stonefamily on Aug 7, 2019 15:36:20 GMT -5
Yes, you have the right Florence. I think Jenny was raised by her father, who remarried which means there must have been a divorce based on perhaps dessertion on her part is my guess. Her full date of birth is March 30, 1898. I have seen the other documents you referred to. I just don't know who she married and what became of her after 1939. At that time however she was using her maiden name Stone again.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 8, 2019 6:28:41 GMT -5
The birthdate shown in the 1939 Register for Florence is 30th March 1898 but it looks like there is an entry suggesting it should be 30th May 1898 at St Buryan. She is recorded simply as 'Florence Stone' and stated she was single so there are a couple of questions. 1. she was baptized as 'Florence Lilian' but have you tried searching for her just as 'Florence' or even possibly just as 'Lilian'? 2. is the fact that she had a daughter the only reason to say she had been married? Point 1. - 'Florence Stone' is not an uncommon name but you need to vary your search terms and not restrict them because of the second forename. Point 2. - If there is no definite knowledge that Florence was married then it could be that her daughter Janey was illegitimate and might also be registered as 'Stone'. I find it very curious that there appears to be no record of Florence in the GRO Birth Index yet there is for her sister who was born in 1895. Her entry appears in the GRO Index as 'Elizabeth Metheabell Stone'. Also this entry appears in the OPC records:- There are a further five children in the 1911 Census that also appear to be illegitimate children of Sarah Beatrice Stone. Every one of those can be found in the GRO Birth Index so it is perhaps even more strange that Florence is missing. Could that suggest that she was registered under the father's name I wonder? The only 'Florence Lilian' registered in the Penzance District near the right time is Florence Lilian Curnow in late 1897 but her mother's name was Murley and she is a little early in any case and can be ruled out. The only other possibilities were registered only as 'Florence':- March Qtr 1898 Florence GALLIE (mother's maiden name Williams) Florence WILLIAMS (mother's maiden name Hosking) June Qtr 1898 Florence HUTCHENS (mother's maiden name Grenfell) September Qtr 1898 (in case of late registration) Florence STEVENS (mother's maiden name Trembath) As you can see all of these have the mother's maiden name recorded in which case they can also be discounted as possibilities. It may simply be that the birth of Florence was not registered for some reason. Do you have any idea of exactly when and where daughter Jenny might have been born? Perhaps if you can find a record of her birth it might offer some more clues. CT
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Post by stonefamily on Aug 8, 2019 9:25:43 GMT -5
Hi there, thanks for all your research! I have searched under just Florence and also Florrie which was apparently what the family called her. Also, she was indeed married and I see an Edward Clancy married a Florence Lilian Stone but not in Cornwall so I am unsure if that is her.I did try to search a Jennifer and Jenny Clancy and approximated her birth date but no luck. I could not find much on Edward Clancy either. Her mother was Sarah Beatrice Stone and the father is unknown is the case for many of the children except my grandmother Alberta. Sarah Beatrice registered most of the children with her last name and on the baptismal cert. lists herself as single woman. If she did indeed die in the work house which is where we last see her did would they have buried her there and perhaps in an unmarked grave or would they still have done that in the late 30's? It is very odd and she is not the only one that disappeared from the family. Her brother George Ivor I. Stone also disappeared after apparently deserting from the Royal Navy after the second world war so I am also working on that. I am getting my info from my mother who spoke to my grandmothers sisters around the mid 80's. They basically said Florence left and was never heard from again. Perhaps she had some mental illness that caused a break down but that is just a guess. I like a challenge and it has always intrigued my mother as to what happened to her aunt.
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Post by sue on Aug 8, 2019 14:28:50 GMT -5
Family stories are very interesting, but not always accurate. (I have found from personal experience, plus many other instances!) Like CT, I would not be certain Florence Stone married, just because the family said so. And in those days I think it would have been pretty unusual for a poor woman to revert to using her maiden name, after a marriage break-up - not the thing to do. Just as a wild aside, I wonder if the birth of Florence might possibly equate to the birth registered in the Penzance RD June Q 1898 of Beatrice May Stone, for whom I have as yet not found definite further trace, and for whom GRO does not list a mother's maiden name. Just a thought. Anyway, looking at facts, on which to build our search: 1) Daughter Jenny: when was she born, & where? - so that we can confirm this in official online records hopefully. 2) And was the name Jennifer? Or what exactly? 3) If Jenny was born before 1939, where is she in the 1939 register? 4) Did daughter Jenny marry? If so, both parents (if known) would be named on Jenny's marriage certificate - and her official surname should be given. 5) Is Florence alone in the workhouse 1939? There is no Stone with a 1st name anything like Florence in the death records on www.freebmd.org.uk for 1939 onwards Penzance reg. District; there is no indication therefore that Florence died in the Madron workhouse - they would definitely have registered the death. The year 1939 is worth thinking about: single women got employment all over the country in factories, making things for the war effort 1939 - 1945. It was a time of great upheaval. Florence may well have left Cornwall and not kept in touch with family. She may have emigrate post WW11. ........................... P.S. Brother is in GRO Births June Q 1917 as George Ivor Gray Stone. BUT, we must stick with one person line of enquiry right now: Florence Stone born 30 March/May 1898 St Buryan to Sarah Beatrice Stone. Florence who is in the Madron Workhouse 1939 as a single woman. Florence for whom there is no death record in that area following 1939, so presumably left the area, married out of the area, worked out of the area and stopped being in touch with her family - apparently.
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Post by zibetha on Aug 8, 2019 16:50:14 GMT -5
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 9, 2019 2:18:15 GMT -5
Well done Zib!!! - That certainly solves part of the problem. Sue - in my experience with the 1939 Register it seems very few children were recorded, particularly infants or those only a few years old. I don't know what the criteria was but certainly for most families I have searched for I have found it rare to find the children listed. I have just tried a little exercise in an effort to see if I could narrow down possibilities for Florence and her daughter. I extracted all births from FreeBMD between 1914 and 1939 for children named Jane or with the name beginning with 'Jen'. I then extracted all marriages between 1914 and 1939 where the bride's name began with 'Flo'. If there was a second name or second initial involved I extracted only those where that second name began with 'L'. From there I checked each groom's surname in turn and used the 'find' function in MSWord to search the list of births I had created. I eventually cut the list down to four possibilities and was beginning to feel 'hopeful'. Unfortunately - with very little difficulty I was able to dismiss each one of those four possibilities from my calculations. There could be a number of reasons such as an entry missing from the index, the birth not registered etc. But there is also the possibility that Jenny was illegitimate and that Florence married AFTER Jenny was born! Right at this moment I think the best way to proceed is to try and find as much information about Jenny as possible. CT
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Post by sue on Aug 9, 2019 4:50:52 GMT -5
I too thought the missing birth might be due to the concealed birth conviction of Beatrice Stone in 1898... but I found that was an actual Beatrice (baptized 11 November 1877 to Joseph & Eliza) not the Sarah Beatrice relevant here, and the child was a male dead body . FMP newspaper summary extracts have references to this e.g. "BODY FOUND IN A WELL. ARREST OF THE MOTHER. the remains were discovered is situated near a cottage occupied by a labourer named Joseph Thomas Stone and his family. Beatrice Stone, the daughter, has been service in Belgravia Street, Penzance.......... 11 August 1898 - The Cornish Telegraph - Penzance, Cornwall, England" and "Committed for Trial for Concealment of Birth. At the Penzance guildhall, on Monday afternoon, Beatrice Stone was charged with having unlawfully endeavoured to conceal the birth of her ma'e child.—Mr. T. W. Field was the presidirg 11 August 1898 - Cornishman - Penzance, Cornwall, England" The reason I mused as to the birth registered in the Penzance RD June Q 1898 of Beatrice May Stone, no mother maiden name given, perhaps in fact being Florence, was the correct birth Q & location, illegitimacy, relatively unusual name Beatrice which was the mother's middle name, and the fact I could find no further trace of this Beatrice May. (Beatrice in 1901/1911 censuses with parents Francis & Elizabeth was baptized 30 September 1898 born 9 July 1898 (OPC) which corresponds to the September Q 1898 Penzance RD birth...) leaving Beatrice May illegit. June Q 1898 Penzance RD with no trace that I can see. Look forward to some specifics re Florence's daughter Jenny per Points 1 - 5 in previous post! Sue
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 9, 2019 6:49:12 GMT -5
I stand corrected …. and overruled! - Well done Sue. Yes, Beatrice May does now stand out as a possibility to be Florence but without more information about her daughter we might be chasing our tails for some time I think. So it is a case of sit back and await any further information that might be available. CT
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Post by sue on Aug 9, 2019 7:05:37 GMT -5
There's a 1st time for everything! Looking fwd to that detailed information from the starter of this thread. Sue
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Post by stonefamily on Aug 9, 2019 7:14:42 GMT -5
Funnily enough my cousin from Penzance just sent me the Beatrice Stone story thinking it was our great grandmother but I was able to find the Beatrice Stone they were referring too and ruled it out as well.
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Post by stonefamily on Aug 9, 2019 7:16:15 GMT -5
I really know nothing more than I have told you, I have no information about Jenny other than family heresay unfortunately. Thank you all for working on this for me, I do appreciate all your hard work.
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Post by stonefamily on Aug 9, 2019 7:16:49 GMT -5
She does exist however as my mother met her and talked to her.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 9, 2019 8:48:39 GMT -5
We seem to be running out of clues here but it is not time to give up yet! None of us doubt that Jenny existed so that has to be a good start! Okay, your mother met Jenny and talked to her so - do you know when this happened and, perhaps more importantly, where this meeting took place? If you have some idea of where this was then do you know if that place was where Jenny was living? Do you have any idea of Jenny's age when this meeting took place? Any little detail we can dig out might help sneak us that little bit closer to the answer. CT
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