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Post by malphillips1 on Apr 28, 2019 6:15:31 GMT -5
I wonder if anyone has looked into an incident in 1828 when two Phillips family members died.
It was mentioned in the London newspapers of the time, including The Examiner (24 Aug 1828), the Morning Chronicle (19 Aug 1828) and The Standard (Monday 18th Aug 1828). It seems to have been syndicated by the Plymouth Journal.
It is also in the Royal Cornwall Gazette Saturday 16 Aug 1828:
"St Ives - Aug 14 - On Friday night last the drift boats belonging to this place encountered a tremendous gale....Only one boat was wrecked and she was manned by five persons who knew nothing of seamanship, of whom two (named Nicholas and John Phillips) were drowned: they attempted to land in a small boat, but it was upset."
There is a slightly conflicting account in the diary of John Tregerthen Short (as transcribed by Edward Hain and now printed in the book "Prisoners of War in France from 1804 - 1814" - Page 45 in my version).
You'll note the month is different.
"September 9 - Twenty-eight boats were driven to Newquay, St Agnes and Portreath; two boats lost, one crew saved, but two men from the other boat, Nicholas Phillips and his nephew were drowned."
I am pretty sure I know who John is - son of John and Susannah Phillips, baptised 1 Jun 1803. A slightly jarring note is that John is described as a 'seaman' on his marriage record (6 May 1822 - St Ives - he married Mary Sisley) and later as a 'fisherman' on his daughter Mary's baptism record (23 Aug 1822). That doesn't seem to fit with the newspaper quote 'five persons who knew nothing of seamanship'.
Despite that I'm still pretty convinced that the John who died in 1828 was the son of John and Susannah.
But Nicholas is more of an unknown quantity. I'm presuming he is a brother of John - but clearly he may be a brother of Susannah (I have never found a marriage for John and Susannah. Perhaps her maiden name may also have been Phillips).
John (senior's) own birth date is rather vague - somewhere in the 1770s to 80s.
I have my own theories and there is a lot more information about the family which I can draw upon (yes, I can go on at even greater length) - but the existence of Nicholas Phillips as an uncle to John (jnr) is quite critical in going back beyond a 'brick wall' - and other people may see things differently (which is always helpful).
Which brings me back to the question of whether anyone else has looked at the 1828 fishing incident - and maybe come up with a different view.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 28, 2019 13:29:03 GMT -5
The reason you cannot find a marriage for John Phillips and Susanna is probably because it did not take place in Cornwall.
John Phillips married Susanna DAVIS at Ringwood, Hampshire 28th July 1799
Parentage of John Phillips senior is vague and although it seems the 1851 Census shows him as born at St Ives it is likely that it was not the case. Between 1737 and 1800 there were only 37 Phillips baptisms at St Ives so the family was certainly not prominent in that Parish.
The closest possibility in the OPC records a baptism at Illogan in 1767 to Samuel and Elizabeth Phillips and if there is a connection between the two Phillips who drowned in the 1828 wreck then this may be it. Samuel and Elizabeth also had a son named Nicholas baptized at Illogan in 1782 which would make him an uncle of the younger John IF they were related at all.
CT
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Post by malphillips1 on Apr 29, 2019 5:14:48 GMT -5
Hi. Thanks for replying. Yes I agree there is likely to be a connection outside the county of Cornwall and that the Davis surname was involved, though the evidence is a bit thin on the ground.
There are actually a couple of John and Susannah marriages in Hampshire which could possibly fit.
However, just looking at the children which seem likely to be those of John and Susannah we see one called Hannah Davis Phillips baptised 14 Jun 1882 at St Ives. That adds a little extra credibility to the Susannah Davis connection.
My current guess is that they may have been a family that moved to and fro between Cornwall and Hampshire (not far from the border with Dorset, in fact). John may be born in Cornwall (and my hypothesis would be that he IS) but married elsewhere.
When I joined the board I said I had been looking at the way the family of Gregory Phillipps (Rector of Phillack in the early to mid 1600s) seemed to have family connections in both Cornwall and Devon - and again moved to and fro. I don't think I am connected to them - but there is the concept of people having links to several counties.
You may already know that there is also the case of Amelia the daughter of John and Mary Phillips, baptised 1 Feb 1795 at St Ives. Now, I suspect John and Mary were the parents of the John Phillips, who married Susannah. A friend of mine working on the same tree as I am has discovered another Amelia baptised at Fareham in Hampshire 31 May 1801, with parents John and Susannah.
The two Amelias are relatively close in age, so there is a risk they could be mis-identified. One of those Amelias - I believe most likely to be the daughter of John and Mary (mentioned before) - married Ephraim Grenfell at St Ives 8 May 1821.
The other Amelia married James Penberthy at St Ives 5 Apr 1820 - and just possibly significant is the fact that one of the Witnesses was an Amelia Phillips - so perhaps a namesake cousin?
This Amelia (now Amelia Penberthy) is said to be 'born in county' in the 1841 census (at St Ives) - but from Southampton, Hampshire in the 1851 census (in the Halsetown area of St Ives).
So there is a paper trail - but as always it can be interpreted in different ways. I'm not completely sure I have to two Amelias sorted out correctly.
You have already spotted the possible Illogan connection. I think the John and Mary mentioned above, may well be connected to Samuel and Elizabeth, with John being a half (or even a quarter) brother - because of multiple marriages.
However, in one way that takes me back to St Ives and the fishing deaths, which is where I started out. One of the witnesses to the marriage between Amelia Phillips and Ephraim Grenfell was NICHOLAS Phillips.
My current hypothesis is that he was the same Nicholas who died in the fishing incident. But hypotheses are best if they can be tested. That is why I was interested to see whether anyone had researched the fishing deaths and come up with a different conclusion.
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Post by malphillips1 on Apr 29, 2019 5:19:56 GMT -5
Have noticed I gave Hannah Davis Phillips baptism as in 1882. That is wrong - it should be 1822.
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Post by malphillips1 on Apr 29, 2019 5:43:57 GMT -5
Also (rather belatedly, sorry about that) noticed that you referred to Nicholas, the son of Samuel and Elizabeth Phillips - baptised at Illogan 27 Apr 1783.
That Nicholas died abt Sep 1847 at Penzance. There was an issue about the way his Will was sorted out (which took until 1900 to resolve) so there is quite a lot of coverage.
On that basis, I conclude he wasn't the one who's death was reported in the 1828 fishing incident. However, if he WAS the same person, - and actually survived when his nephew died - that might have been the reason for a major family split.
Nicholas of Illogan's brother John Phillips (s/o Samuel and Elizabeth - baptised Illogan 17 Jun 1770) seems to disappear. He's not mentioned in the Nicholas Phillips (abt 1783) Will - but I can't confirm a marriage or indeed a death for him.
It is certainly tempting to link John (of John and Mary - mentioned beforehand) as a son of Samuel and Elizabeth in Illogan). I've tried but failed so far.
Again he might have moved outside Cornwall.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 29, 2019 7:30:29 GMT -5
The link to Hampshire would suggest the possibility that John Phillips was somehow connected to the sea. That can be said for a high percentage of Cornishmen but in the case of John I mean that he may have been more than just a 'fisherman'. Many Cornishmen married in Devon or Hampshire so you need to be careful not to get too carried away with greater connections outside Cornwall unless there is compelling evidence to do so. (Look closer to home for answers in the first place. ) I am heavily committed with my US research at the moment but as I find time I will see if I can hunt out anything else on these Phillips families that might help. I also have connections beginning with the 1688 marriage of Martin Trewella and Alse Phillips at Zennor so they are of interest to me. CT
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Post by malphillips1 on Apr 29, 2019 10:20:40 GMT -5
You are thinking on the same general lines as me. John (who married Susannah) certainly had a boat - and not a lot of luck with it, it has to be said. There are a couple of incidents relating to him (as far as I can tell) in the diary of John Tregerthen Short. One record says John Phillips and Sidney lost their boats (17 Dec 1830). Another earlier one suggests that John 'and his son' ... 'ran on shore near Portreath' (date was 14 Oct - but the year isn't clear).
No real idea who Sidney was - though I have heard suggestions it might be a Sidney Richards.
At some point I will try to investigate the possibility of a military connection. That would fit with Fareham - the French wars - and even chimes slightly with something in the Will of Nicholas Phillips. Royal Marines? Navy? Army? Maybe Revenue men? All involve a lot of work.
And why, if you want to join the military, do you look at Hampshire when Plymouth is a lot closer?
And at the moment, like you I am involved in other areas. At present I am looking at the Care family around St Ives - but I have been slightly side-tracked by a potential link between Stoke Climsland, South Australia and - yes - Gregory Phillipps the Rector of Phillack and Gwithian.
You have gone further back than I have in Zennor - though I note there is a marriage 24 Aug 1732 between Margaret Trewhella and Robert Phillips at neighbouring Towednack. Families seem to stay together.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 29, 2019 12:59:22 GMT -5
I don't know much about the military side of things but perhaps a 'choice' was not in the offing. Perhaps ending up at Plymouth or in Hampshire might have been dictated from the Cornish side if these men were members of the local militia.
Robert Phillips at Towednack - I have not yet identified him either but that is one area I will be looking at once I have tidied up all my foreign information. (Still Canada, Chile, Italy and Russia to work on plus a couple of lone ventures into Mexico, Bolivia, India and perhaps a couple of other countries!) But Robert Phillips' wife was not a Trewhella by birth - she was actually a Renoden who had first married Thomas Trewhella and married Robert Phillips after she was widowed.
CT
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Post by malphillips1 on Apr 29, 2019 17:52:36 GMT -5
Yes - a lot of non-trivial research needed on the military side. But given the fact that England was at war during this period it may play a part.
John Tregerthen Short has a reference (in a list of Cornish Sailors) to a Joseph Phillips being one of the sailors who died as a Prisoner of War in France. Many on the list seem to be from St Ives.
So far as Robert Phillips in Zennor is concerned I have found a note to myself saying that he may well be the son of Francis Phillips and Elizabeth Sweete (Francis being born about 1670 and marrying Elizabeth at Zennor 29 May 1697). Is that your view?
In his Will (Francis Phillips' Will of 1723) which you have probably seen, he mentions wife Elizabeth, sons Francis, John and Robert, and daughters Jane, Elizabeth, Mary and Ann.
I've not seen a baptism for Robert.
Interesting to hear that Margaret was not originally a Trewhella.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 29, 2019 18:33:27 GMT -5
I am reasonably sure that Robert son of Francis and Elizabeth married Ursula Betty at Cury in 1740. What I am not sure about is whether or not he had been previously married to Margaret.
It is a long time since I looked at this scenario but I seem to recall considering that possibility given that Margaret Phillips had been buried at Zennor 16th January 1735/6. And Robert and Ursula did return to Zennor after marriage as she was buried at Zennor in 1781.
I think my biggest concern was that lack of surviving records for Zennor/Towednack. I have remedied that situation to a large degree but unfortunately there are still gaps in the legible BTs and much of the surviving early register is in a very poor state.
I need to one day find enough time to be able to concentrate solely on that problem to see if I can arrive at any sensible conclusions.
CT
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Post by malphillips1 on Apr 30, 2019 14:51:36 GMT -5
All I have is the marriage at Towednack - the baptism of the daughter Margaret at Zennor (5 Jan 1733) - and the reference to a Robert in the Will of Francis Phillips.
It is really just a stub of a tree.
And there is another slightly earlier 'stub' which I saw:
Parish: Zennor Name: Robert PHILLIPS Birth Date: Abt. 1655 Birth Place: Birth Description: Baptism Date: Baptism Place: Baptism Description: Father name: Mother name: Marriage Date: 04 Nov 1681 Marriage Place: Zennor, Cornwall, England Marriage Description: Spouse name: Margaret UDY Death Date: Abt. Nov 1696 Death Place: Cornwall, England Death Description: Burial Date: 01 Nov 1696 Burial Place: Zennor, Cornwall, England Burial Description:
I don't have anything relevant on (the later) Robert and Ursula in Cury.
In St Agnes I have sketchy details which may be nothing to do with them - but are possibly relevant given the names Robert and Ursula are quite rare and this is the same general period:
Parish: St Agnes Name: Robert PHILLIPS Birth Date: Abt. 1715 Birth Place: Birth Description: Baptism Date: Baptism Place: Baptism Description: Father name: Mother name: Marriage Date: 17 May 1744 Marriage Place: St. Agnes, Cornwall, England Marriage Description: Spouse name: Eulalaia COWLING Death Date: Abt. May 1793 Death Place: Cornwall, England Death Description: Burial Date: 06 May 1793 Burial Place: St. Agnes, Cornwall, England Burial Description: Aged 78. Lived at St Agnes. Note: 'Robert Phillips the elder'
Elsewhere I have suggested that Eulalaia could be a mis-transcription for Ursula. The source of the marriage is Phillimores (via the COPC database).
The burial is from the COPC database.
I believe there were four children at St Agnes (on Family Search):
Robert - bap 14 Apr 1745 Mary - 12 Mar 1747/48 Sarah (1) - 20 Jan 1752 Sarah (2) - 26 Jan 1755
I've not seen a burial record for Sarah (1) - and it may be that there were two 'baptisms' for the same child. One perhaps a private baptism and the second maybe a 'rec'd into congregation'.
I don't have a Zennor burial for Ursula/Eulalaia (or whatever the real name was - they do seem to have struggled with it) but I do have a likely burial for her at St Agnes (COPC).
Parish: St Agnes Name: Eulalaia COWLING Birth Date: Abt. 1715 Birth Place: Birth Description: Baptism Date: Baptism Place: Baptism Description: Father name: Mother name: Marriage Date: 17 May 1744 Marriage Place: St. Agnes, Cornwall, England Marriage Description: Spouse name: Robert PHILLIPS Death Date: Abt. Dec 1791 Death Place: Cornwall, England Death Description: Burial Date: 02 Dec 1791 Burial Place: St. Agnes, Cornwall, England Burial Description: Aged 76. Wife of Robert. Name transcribed at Ulililah.
The birth years for both Robert and Ursula (or whatever) in St Agnes are just wild guesses!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 30, 2019 19:22:52 GMT -5
EULALIA is absolutely correct and it is quite clearly written in the St Agnes Parish Register. It is also a name I have seen in the past so this is certainly a different family to that of Robert and Ursula.
The details for the family of Robert and Ursula are as follows with all information taken from original Parish Registers and Bishops Transcripts. All dates are presented in Julian Calendar format.
Robert Phillips and Ursula Betty were married October 5th 1740 at Cury (Cury Parish Register) Ursula daughter of Charles and Mary Betty was baptized at Gunwalloe 21st October 1711 (Bishops Transcripts via FamilySearch) Elizabeth daughter of Robert Phillips of the Parish of Zennor and Ursula his wife was baptized 6th January 1740 at Cury (Cury Parish Register) Anne daughter of Robert Phillips and Ursula his wife was baptized 5th February 1742 Gunwalloe (Gunwalloe Parish Register) Robert son of Robert and Ursula Philips was baptized 3rd November 1745 Gwinear (Gwinear Parish Register) Francis son of Robert and Ursula Philips was baptized 26th December 1748 Gwinear (Gwinear Parish Register) Mary daughter of Robert and Ursula Philips was baptized 28th December 1751 Gwinear (Gwinear Parish Register) Ursula Phillips was buried 6th May 1781 Zennor (Hoblyn Transcript and Exeter Bishops Transcripts)
Francis Phillips (1748 Gwinear) married Elizabeth Curnow at Zennor 29th September 1775 and was buried at Zennor 27th July 1824 at the age of 78.
CT
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Post by malphillips1 on May 2, 2019 11:00:15 GMT -5
Eulalia it is then! Incidentally, looking back at some notes I see that there were two Robert Phillips born around Zennor in the same sort of period - one to Francis and the other to Robert. You know, the more I look at things from this particular family's (Phillips in Zennor's) perspective, the more potential links I see across much of Cornwall. They obviously made some money in the process of spreading across the county - and formed links to other families with some degree of prestige. To get 'into their heads' I need to do more reading around. Were there big land drainage schemes in Cornwall at some point (1500s maybe), making new agricultural land available I wonder? Deforestation? I tend to believe that in most cases anything before 1851 involves a bit of a guess. Everything before 1800 really is a guess. The 1600s are on a different planet. On that basis, I am currently layering guesses upon guesses on a different planet - which is not ideal! But I feel drawn towards pulling together at least a hypothetical tree for the 1570 to 1770 period. Not for a while though.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 2, 2019 14:14:45 GMT -5
Guesses?? Never!!! Loose but reasonable scenarios based on known facts is something I can accept provided it is made known those scenarios are just that and nothing more. And don't become preoccupied with proving links between different Phillips families when those links may not exist - especially if there is evidence that at least one of those families may originate outside Cornwall. Best to treat each family line as separate until and unless something is found that might suggest otherwise. I have several Trewhella (sic.) families in Cornwall who I have long suspected 'should' or 'might' logically be connected but could find nothing to actually 'prove' any links. Given the amount and geographical locations of those families I am perhaps in a better position than you with the Phillips but I have always kept them separate. The big difference in situations is that I recently found proof via DNA testing that at least three of my families do indeed share a common ancestor somewhere in the last 12 generations or so. But I still have to keep each of those families as separate entities until I can find something to narrow down exactly where the connections might be. CT
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Post by malphillips1 on May 5, 2019 13:17:28 GMT -5
Yes - I'll go with 'Loose but reasonable scenarios based on known facts'. And of course that works when all the facts are actually available - and unambiguous (well 'reasonably' unambiguous).
I don't know about the Trewhellas - but I would put money on my view that there is no realistic connection between the majority of Phillips families - other than the fact that they share (variations of) a surname. They've come from different places, at different times - and possibly with different motivations (though I tend to believe that 'following the money' is their biggest motivator - at least in times of peace).
But you'll see from the context of my earlier remark that I was talking about those specific Phillips families around Zennor/Gulval - and Towednack. They have forged links you can trace across a wide area. Clearly they're not all links to other Phillips families (though some might well be connected by marriage). Look at the Will of Luce Phillips for instance.
Interested to hear about the DNA matches - and I'm cautious about that. The links may not be between Trewhellas (in your case). Maybe the DNA bond involves a Smith - a Jones - or even a Phillips. And 12 generations allows a lot of space for inter-marriage.
All of which takes us a long way away from where I started earlier this week - the Fishing incident in 1828.
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