Francis Curnow (1840-1901)

[rogerC41]

I am trying to back track Francis Curnow who was the a Commissioner for Railways in Queensland in the 1890s.
I cant find his birth in OPC but the 1841 and 1851 censuses would indicate his parents were James Curnow (b. 1807) and Jane (b.1812).
OPC gives me James Curnow marrying Jane Hollow, St Ives 1832.
OPC gives me two possible baptisms for James (b.1807). One baptism is Gulval, the other St Ives.
The parents in each case being William and Mary.
Can anybody help me to decide between the two baptisms and/or with earlier male line ancestors ?

roger

[Cornish Terrier]

Francis was the son of James Curnow and Jane Hollow.
James Curnow in turn was baptized at St Ives 1st February 1807 to William Curnow and Mary Richards who married at Zennor in 1802.
After Jane (Hollow) died in 1867 James then married Margaret (nee Daniel) the widow of William Daniel Quick. James Curnow died in 1882 and was buried at Barnoon Cemetery in St Ives.

If you log in to the GRO Online Index you can find the indexed birth entry for Francis Curnow in 1840. In this index the mother's maiden name is given as HOLLOW which matches with the above information.

As for the other James baptized at Gulval in 1807 - he was buried at Gulval 19th August 1808.

CT

[sue]

I have this from the free online Aus newspapers:

The Brisbane Courier , Thursday 25 April 1901
(Queensland)

Francis Curnow was born at St. Ives, Cornwall, England, on 4th January, 1840, and arrived in Queensland in March, 1860, when the young colony was in the throes of its first general election. Anxious to gain commercial experience, he entered the establishment of Messrs. Cribb and Foote, Ipswich, and remained with that firm until he accepted an offer from the Hon. Arthur McAlister, the Premier of the colony, of a pay clerkship in connection with the Road Department. The district under his charge extended from Brisbane to Dalby and Warwick. On the inauguration of the railway system in Queensland, in 1866, he was appointed principal railway store-keeper, and, later, was promoted to be secretary of the Locomotive Department for the purpose of organising its accounts. When the Government decided to separate the two departments—works and Railways—Mr. Curnow was appointed chief clerk of the railways of the colony, and subsequently on the retirement of Mr. A. O. Herbert became Commissioner for Railways, which position he held until 1889, when he retired on a pension. At the request of the Government, he was shortly afterwards appointed chairman of the Metropolitan Transit Commission, which appointment he occupied almost up to the time of his death. Mr. Curnow was placed on the commission of peace twenty years ago. He was also conciliating justice, chairman of the Normal School Board, returning-officer for Toombul, and a director of the Royal Bank of Queensland. He was married twice, and leaves a family of four sons and two daughters.

Sue

[rogerC41]

Thanks CT, Sue.

I have quite a bit on Francis the railway man. What i am trying to do is discover from which of Thomas's sons he is descended.
If he was indeed descended from Thomas d.1643.

roger

[Cornish Terrier]

I'll have to leave this for Sue to take care of for now. We have major fires burning in the south of the State and I am about to be deployed with a crew on our Tanker. Could be away for a couple of days.

CT

[sue]

Hi again Roger

Ok, so CT has told you James Curnow 1807 was son of Wm Curnow & Mary Richards who married at Zennor 1802. OPC shows that at this marriage 12 December 1802, tinner William Curnow signed his name; the witnesses were Wm Richards & Henry Daniell.

Their children can be found sequentially on OPC by careful studying of children baptized to Wm Curnow & wife Mary:
William Curnow 26 Dec 1803 St ives
John Curnow 24 March 1805 St Ives
James 1 Feb 1807 St Ives we know
Robert Richards 3 June 1811 St Ives is a likely candidate; a bit of a gap before him is filled by the burial of Robert Richards Curnow 25 December 1808 St Ives, son of Wm & Mary
Next, either Matthew Curnow 8 August 1813 St Ives or Hannah Curnow 28 November 1813 Zennor of Treveal. But you know from in-depth discussions on another thread that Hannah belongs to a different Wm Curnow & Mary; so, Matthew Curnow 8 August 1813 St Ives
Mary Curnow 1 October 1815 St Ives
Ann Curnow 15 December 1816 St Ives belongs here… marries Edwin Daniel in St Ives 1840

Are there any suitable age Wm Curnow & wife Marys in 1841 census?
Well, there’s Wm Curnow & Mary both age 65 (i.e. 65 – 69) in Halsetown; also present Wm Curnow age 9 (sounds like grandson age) & Alice Curnow tailor age 20 – 24.
The Wm & Mary at Amalveor in Towednack age 50 (50 – 54) we have discussed elsewhere – and would have been underage to marry in 1802.
So, Wm Curnow & Mary at Halsetown 1841 age 60 – 64. Likely daughter Alice at home.

So post 1816 Ann we have Alice Curnow 20 June 1819 St Ives. I'll leave you to check for later children.

Back to Wm & Mary. Searching for a Mary Curnow c age 72 in 1851, I find a 73 year old widow, born St Ives, resident with a Francis Gill & wife Mary born St Ives. I find a married pauper William Curnow age 75 in the Helston workhouse, born Towednack; not an ideal fit of facts. So Wm Curnow father of James Curnow & gfather of Francis Curnow has probably died…. A good fit would be 18 August 1844 St Ives age 68. If this be him, then that would give a birth year of c.1776.

There are several Wm Curnows baptised around that time, which requires a full elimination game of all the families (which I've done, but you will want to do yourself )….. although the more obvious candidate would be the baptism of a Wm Curnow to a father named William, given William Curnow & Mary Richards named their 1stborn William, which at that time was normally for the father’s father, rather than for the father.

Looking at the naming pattern for Wm Curnow & Mary Richards’ children, we have :
William – for father’s father, or father?
John – for Mary’s father? No – see below. For a brother of William?
James – for a brother of William?
Robert Richards – definitely from Mary’s side! So is there a Mary born c1778 St Ives (per 1851 census information) to a Robert Richards? Yes. So this was probably the 1st of the sons to be named for Mary’s side of the family, firming up the likelihood that John & James were brothers of William Curnow.
Matthew – Robert & Joan Richards, Mary’s parents, had a son Matthew. In fact, their complete set of children per OPC seem to be Robert, John, Matthew, William, Mary, Ann.
(Why no Joan for Mary’s mother?? Don’t know. )
But anyway, the male names in Mary Richards’ family are all covered, meaning the name James is definitely from William Curnow’s side of the family; and the name Alice isn’t among Mary’s siblings either, so it seems William Curnow had a sister or mother called Alice.
Well, there’s an Alice Curnow 1772 Zennor to father William; OPC shows apparent siblings Elizabeth 1774, William 1776, John 1780, James 1783, Mary 1786. Hmm, a set of boys called William, John & James: good fit for the names of Wm Curnow~Mary Richards’ sons.

And the baptism record for John 1780 Zennor names his mother as Alice – a William Curnow married Alice Richards 1772 Zennor. Witnesses Job Richards & David Curnow.

Not many David Curnows around, so that should help!

I’ll leave you to digest all that & do some checking of records yourself now.

Sue

[rogerC41]

Thanks Sue.
Between CT's response - "I'll have to leave this for Sue" and yours, impeccable and detailed as ever, I had put together a line of descent which ran:
Thomas Curnow (1588-1643) / Robert Curnow (d.1685) / David b.1662/ James b.1703/ William b.1748/ William b.1776/ James b.1807/ Francis b.1849/ ....
but with little evidence to support it. Some of it came from OPC but mostly I resorted to Bill Curnow's "A Family History Resource Book" 1990.

You seem to have certified my tentative line back as far as William b. 1748.
His parents were James (b. 1703) and Jane (Baragwanath) married Towednack 1727. They had a string of kids [OPC] James (1731), Robert (1732) Jane (1736), Anne (1739), Willmot (1742), Elisabeth (1745) and William (1748)..

James's father was David (b.1662) I think. The OPC has 5 children for David; Catherine (1693), David (1695), William (1697), John (1701) and James (1703) all without a mother mentioned. We can however find David marrying Jane Roberts at Towednack January 1692.

David's birth I can not find, nor his antecedents except by relying on the afore mentioned 1990 book edited by Bill Curnow.
This gives me Robert (d.1685) as his father. Robert married Catherin Canteen, the pair having  seven other children including the Rosewall marrying pair Robert and Michael.
Above them we have Thomas (d.1643).

and so
Thomas Curnow (1588-1643) / Robert Curnow (d.1685) / David b.1662/ James b.1703/ William b.1748/ William b.1776/ James b.1807/ Francis b.1849/.............

   roger

[sue]

1990 was a long time ago; Bill Curnow himself acknowledges that the information in his booklet is incorrect in places & he relied often on what people told him. Nowadays we have access to so many more actual source records, including via records (not trees!) on the internet.

Attention to boring detail needed!!

James Curnow & Jane Baragnawath married 14 April 1727. No children until 1731??

You are missing David 3 Feb 1728. It’s there on OPC! Now, a David Curnow – unusual name – was witness at William Curnow’s marriage to Alice Richards. So odds on a brother or father.

OPC also tells you that David Curnow son of James & Jane was buried 1750. So not him then…. However, OPC then records that James & Jane had a further David Curnow 27 May 1751, closest-in-age brother to William by far.

James Curnow’s father was therefore likely to have been a David. You probably need to check out some wills. David Curnow & Jane Roberts had a further child you don’t mention, Zenobia.

Wills are very important.

David’s father Robert did not to my knowledge have a wife named Catherine Canteen. Robert was named as an executor in the 1643 will of Thomas Curnow.


Sue

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Roger - I have been trying to keep up with this amongst the many other things going on at the moment. Sue is definitely the best person to help you but I do need to add my two bobs worth here.

Robert married Catherin Canteen,

This is absolute rubbish. CANTEEN ….. Indeed!! It is my understanding that David Curnow was the son of Robert Curnow and Catherine PAINTER who was named in the 1671 nuncupative Will of Peter Painter "unto his daughter Catherin the now wife of Robert Curnow of Towednack".

I don't know where such a name as 'Canteen' might have come from although I suspect it might be something to do with another piece of rubbish - a supposed surname of the wife of Thomas Curnow. If that is the case then it is still in error.
In the output of some people they describe Thomas Curnow's wife as 'Catherin Canton' (or something similar) but that is not actually meant to be a surname. It is rather a reflection on how they have transcribed her Christian name as it is found in a couple of existing legible register entries. The maiden name of Thomas Curnow's wife is unknown.

CT

[rogerC41]

Hi Sue, CT etal
I logged in to add a quick PS to my previous post, namely that while I could not find a birth for David (b.1662) I could of course find a son David in the Will of Robert (d.1685).
However I see now I need to respond to each of your posts pointing out a major error in my post.
CT
Yes, Catherin(e) Canten/Canteen/Canton is absolute rubbish. On my " trust me" tree in my computer I have him marrying Catherine Painter along with a note that she is Catern in the will and a marriage date of 1653 (but no source, so much for "trust me")). The sort of rubbish one frequently sees on the web. My rubbish came from pre-web days, but still rubbish. When I update stuff on the computer I must learn to throw out, or put a line through earlier paper stuff.

Sue
1. see my response to CT above.
2. Yep, I need to pay more attention to detail even when I am only interested in the end result.
If I intend to believe a theorem I should check the proof.


roger

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Roger - with the amount of rubbish that has been put 'out there' over the years it can be very difficult to distinguish the wheat from the chaff.
Sue and I have both done a lot of work on the Curnows over the years but neither of us know all the answers. However I think we have both learned to spot anything that does not 'look' or 'feel' right and call it out. In many cases we have found solutions but there are still many mysteries to be solved.

If either of us spot what appear to be errors in any of your posts we will help to put you on the right track.

CT