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Post by zibetha on Sept 14, 2023 3:10:51 GMT -5
I finally have some answers from viewing some articles about Thomas Hocken's bankruptcy proceeding. Some of his in-laws were involved, and that gives me brother-in-law David Stickland as the husband of Mary's sister Elizabeth Richards (1803 Lelant) and Mrs. Alice Richards nee Banfield who was the wife of Nicholas Richards as you mentioned previously. Alice's son, Thomas was also involved. Elizabeth and Nicholas were children of Thomas Richards and wife Ann, so I've got Mary's parents.
Thomas Hocken had a life insurance policy that he transferred to Alice since he owed her money, and part of the discussion indicated that was was 77 years old at the time of the article which was published 22 Mar 1844 in the West Briton and Cornwall Advertiser. That works nicely with the baptism to Thomas and Sybella.
"Another relative" mentioned was Mrs. "Cornelia" Harry who held a mortgage on the malt-house and other property. That would be Cordelia Richards who married John Harry in 1797 at Lelant; one of the witnesses was a Thomas Richards. I suspect she may have been a sister. I've not found any earlier records for her.
Sibella Freethy was a widow when she married Thomas Hocken the elder, and I found her first marriage to John Freethy giving her maiden name as Berriman. I haven't found a baptism for her. but there was a "Sabina" in 1734 that has me wondering!
Zib
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 14, 2023 5:17:18 GMT -5
Hi Zib - up to this point I have still not identified a marriage for the parents of Mary Richards (i.e. Thomas and Ann) so hopefully this new information might help. I am starting to work through this information and see if anything matches up with my database but I can give you one addition already. I had not noticed it before because he was not recorded as a 'widower' but David Rogers Stickland is in my database having married Naomi Michell at Phillack in 1836. That means wife Elizabeth Richards (who is about to be added to my database) died sometime before 12th November 1836. I will get this sorted and then see what I can do with the rest - with special attention reserved for Sibella/Sabina. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 14, 2023 5:37:05 GMT -5
Hmmm - best you ignore my comment about David Rogers being married twice. I just discovered there was another David Rogers Stickland with the two being baptised 4 years apart!!! And I thought I had that part of the Strickland/Stickland family all sorted!!! CT
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Post by zibetha on Sept 14, 2023 5:45:59 GMT -5
Yes, I think they were cousins. The husband of Elizabeth Richards was the younger man -- son of John Stickland and Mary Gilbert. the two David Rogers Sticklands were named after an uncle who died at age 23.
Zib
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 14, 2023 8:01:12 GMT -5
I have still not managed to identify a marriage for Thomas and Ann Richards so suspect I may have to start looking towards Devon. But I think I might have now identified most, if not all, the Richards siblings. 1. Mary bp. 26th December 1787 Phillack m. Thomas Hocken 2. Thomas bp. 15th August 1790 Gwithian 3. Nicholas bp. 2nd June 1792 Gwithian m. Alice Banfield 4. Cordelia bp. 5th March 1797 Lelant (this would fit in with your thoughts about Cordelia Richards and John Harry) 5. James bp. 9th November 1800 Lelant 6. Elizabeth bp. 22nd May 1803 Lelant m. David Rogers Stickland Of the marriages available the most likely 'looks' like it should be the 1786 Sithney marriage of Thomas Richards and Ann Simes. Problem with that one is that there are baptisms at Sithney that conflict with those in the list above. The only other realistic possibility in Cornwall is the marriage of Thomas Richards and Ann Pollard at Paul in 1781 but again there are conflicts with a list of baptisms at Paul from 1781 right through to 1802. FamilySearch shows only a couple of other possibilities within a reasonable time but they are in London, Warwickshire and Yorkshire. It looks like we might be dealing with another 'missing' marriage at this stage. Back to Cordelia Richards/John Harry - Cordelia was buried at Lelant 7th June 1850 age 75 indicating a birth around 1775 so hopefully that will be of some help. Of course it was horribly inconvenient of Cordelia to die before the 1851 Census which might have given us a birthplace!!! In 1841 she did say she was born in Cornwall so that is something at least. The closest I can find on FamilySearch is a 'Delia' Richards baptised at Boxley in Kent in 1773. Moving on and switching attention now to Sibella Berriman. I can probably disappoint you regarding your thoughts on her identity. 11th August 1768 Ludgvan - Simon Chilew of this Parish of Ludgvan and Sabra Berryman sojourner of the Parish of Towednack married by Banns - Witnesses:- Paul Quick, Robert Quick I am reasonably sure this was the 'Sabina' baptised at Towednack in 1734 to John and Rebecca Berriman. However - I do have another possibility! I think you will find she is the following:- Sibyl daughter of Mark and Eloner Bereyman baptised 15th March 1728 TowednackNo sign of her after the baptism of daughter Margaret Hocken at St Erth in 1769 ............... but that seems to be not unusual with this particular family!! Time for a break. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 14, 2023 8:30:19 GMT -5
The 'break' that never got started has been interrupted temporarily! No baptism found as yet for Cordelia Richards (wife of John Harry) who appears to have been born around 1775 but I have looked around a little more and there are a couple of options for her connection with Thomas Richards. She could well be a sister and around eight years young than Thomas or she could be a cousin or possibly a niece. In searching for a baptism I found something that might be of interest. Using the OPC database the name 'Cordelia' (Cardlia, Cardelia etc.) first appears in the Richards family at Sithney in 1692 with the father being 'Petter'. But the really interesting thing is that the next records of the name are:- 1743 St Buryan - father's name NICHOLAS 1753 and 1757 Kenwyn - father's name also NICHOLAS More interesting and, therefore, potentially more likely to be the connection that might most interest you will be the potential marriages. For the Kenwyn baptisms the options appear to be marriages at St Gluvias or St Dennis where the brides were Elizabeth Biggs and Mary Long respectively. But I think this next one will catch your eye. 18th June 1733 St Buryan Nicholas RICHARDS and CORDELIA TONKEN The first child of Nicholas and Cordelia Richards appears to have been son Thomas who was baptised at St Buryan 5th January 1733/4. It is just possible that he could have been the husband of Ann and father of Mary, Elizabeth, Nicholas, Cordelia etc. although he would have been around age sixty-nine when daughter Elizabeth was baptised. It is equally possible he could have been a grandson of Nicholas and Cordelia. Thomas could still belong to the Kenwyn family but I don't see a Thomas who could fit. There is also a family at Madron who may descend from the Nicholas/Cordelia marriage but they do not appear to have had a daughter Cordelia. They did, however, have a son named Thomas baptised in 1759. NOW it is time for that break!! CT
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Post by zibetha on Sept 16, 2023 1:47:42 GMT -5
I hope you took a good, long break. This is a lot of information to process. I missed "Sybil" in my searches-- must have consistently used 2 r's in variations for Berri(y)man. I've started a couple more worksheets and have been searching my DNA test results along with my brother's by surname, and we do appear to be Berrimans with several matches sharing Mark and Eleanor as common ancestors. Some go back a bit more; my brother matches someone descended from Loveday Richards and Edward Ladner. There are trees where Berriman appears to be the only possible way we might match. As to the Richards, I also ruled out the 2 Thomas/Ann marriages based on locations/other children/ and have the same 6 Richards siblings you listed as my line. I suspect the records I need for Thomas and Ann as well as for Cordelia were at Lelant. As for Cordelia Richards Harry, I do think her a good possiblity as a sister to Thomas Richards who helped out her niece's family. I don't know that a more distant relative would step up and fund a mortgage. Cordelia's daughter, Mary Harry, married my 3rd great grandmother Mary Hocken Harvey's brother Thomas Hocken. Cousins marrying cousins perhaps. Mary Harry was the only child of Cordelia Richards and Nicholas Harry who lived long enough to marry and have children. I am related to them all anyway because of their father! There was an 1823 burial at Lelant for a Thomas Richards age 58 (thus born about 1765) who could be the man who was my 5th great=grandfather. That would mean 1 more generation needed between him and Nicholas Richards and Cordelia Tonkin and Thomas 1733 could fit. It's so nice to have something to finally work with! Thanks for your help and suggestions. I never expected a Berriman connection Zib
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 16, 2023 8:49:38 GMT -5
I did have a break but right at the moment I am struggling to get back to the Harveys! Although I have now managed to get into the Wendron and Crowan families which I do hope to get back to in an hour or so! Just been sidetracked again with a query from one of my earliest correspondants from around 1991. That led me to look harder at some information that now fills in the details about the father of the children of Caroline Eddy - Thomas Millett Eddy and Hannah Eddy. Thomas Millett Eddy married Johanna Trewhella at Towednack in 1807 and I am fairly confident now I have his line back to the 1671 marriage at St Just of Martin Millett and Ann Burlace (Borlase). But now back to the present and the interesting stuff you are getting into. When searching the OPC database for the Berryman (var.) families I almost always use the wildcard option - b%r%m%n - which picks up all variations so long as those four characters are present. Same thing with names such as Sibella - s%b%l - which works just as well unless the vicar decided to start the name with a 'C'!!! The fact your have multiple links back to Mark and Eleanor Berryman is certainly interesting. I am a long way behind where I need to be with updating the Berryman families but I do have most of the West Penwith groups in the database. But what interests me much more at the moment is that you have DNA links to Edward Ladner and Loveday Richards given it was her daughter Loveday Eddy who married my 3xgt-grandfather William Trewhella at Lelant in 1824. Loveday Richards was first married to William Eddy at Zennor 24th April 1802 and had just two children - William (1802-1802) and Loveday. William Eddy is probably the William buried at Zennor 12th April 1803 and then his widow Loveday married Edward Ladner at Zennor 3rd May 1806 with he also being widowed. Edward Ladner was first married 2nd October 1804 at Madron to Mary Foster nee Newton. I have not yet identified her but she was buried at Penzance 8th February 1805 with, as far as I can tell, no children. The children of Edward and Loveday Ladner:- 1. Nancy (Ann) bp. privately at Madron 26th April 1807 (publicly 30th November 1807) - married Nicholas Brewer at Madron 11th February 1832 2. Thomas bp. 3rd December 1809 at Madron - married Sarah Davies at Penzance 18th September 1838 3. Edward bp. 17th April 1814 at Madron - married 1. Mary Basset at Madron 26th June 1836 and married 2. Sally Bramble at Madron 12th April 1840 (family to Australia between 1846 and 1853) That is probably this one:- Thomas son of John and Joan Richards bp. 5th November 1765 Lelant (father's name is John in the BTs) Parents to the above are probably John Richards and Jone Richards who married at Lelant 6th July 1749 as the only Richards family at Lelant where the mother's name was Jone/Joan was that of John and Joan who baptised children during the period 1751-1765. (That would indicate another of the 'common' errors made by Vicars when filling out the registers - noting parent and child names as the same.) Something not quite right here! I have Mary Harry's husband Thomas Hocken baptised at Lelant 2nd December 1810 to Thomas Hocken and Mary Richards who married at Lelant 8th January 1809. I then have Thomas Hocken senior baptised at St Erth 6th December 1767 son of Thomas Hocken and Sybella Berriman ................ AHA! I have sorted out my problem. I was getting confused with the Mary Hocken Harvey label and now realise you are talking about Mary Hocken who married William Harvey at Gwinear in 1838. If the Thomas buried at Lelant in 1823 is the one baptised in 1765 then I do not think there is a link to Nicholas and Cordelia Richards. The parents of Thomas of 1765 were John Richards and Jone Richards who married at Lelant in 1749. Nicholas Richards and Cordelia Tonkin married at St Buryan in 1733 and although they did have a son John he was baptised in 1738 and would have been just 11 years old in 1749. That is about all I can do for the moment although I do have one item that will be sent via email. It won't help with the origins of Thomas Richards but it will certainly be of interest to you - the 1843 Estate Duty Will of Cordelia Harry. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 16, 2023 9:22:19 GMT -5
One more thing I just found that might add weight to the possibility of Thomas Richards and Cordelia (Richards) Harry being siblings. When Nicholas Richards, son of Thomas and Ann, married Alice Banfield at Lelant in 1818 one of the witnesses was AMELIA HARRY. After a check of possible Amelia Harry baptisms and Harry marriages where the bride was named Amelia it certainly appears that the witness to that marriage was the daughter of John and Cordelia Harry. She would have been just age 16 at the time but she does seem to be the only candidate. I am going to link Thomas and Cordelia together in my database with 'unknown' parents and then see if something happens to turn up to prove the theory. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 16, 2023 11:22:03 GMT -5
I think I might now be able to rule out Thomas Richards being the man baptised at Lelant in 1765.
I did not realise it earlier but I have a copy of the Will of John Richards written 9th October 1797 and proved 17th May 1798 at Lelant. As I suspected earlier this is the family of John Richards and Jone Richards who were married at Lelant 6th July 1749. The bequests were as follows:-
daughter Anne Richards three pounds grandson John Curnow five shillings son John Richards one shilling son Thomas Richards and daughter Joan Richards named as residual legatees and executors
The complete list of children:- 1. John bp. 7th July 1751 Lelant (buried either 1752 or 1755 at Lelant) 2. Joan/Jone bp. 20th May 1753 Lelant 3. Catherine bp. 9th November 1755 Lelant (buried 4th June 1762 Lelant) 4. John bp. 12th February 1758 Lelant 5. Blanch bp. 12th October 1760 Lelant (buried 10th May (6th in BTs) 1797 Lelant 6. Catherine bp. 23rd October 1763 Lelant married John Curnow 17th August 1791 St Ives 7. Thomas bp. 5th November 1765 Lelant 8. Ann bp. 25th July 1768 St Ives
Given there is no daughter Cordelia I think the likelihood of this being the correct family for the Thomas Richards in question must be in doubt. If our suspicions that Cordelia (Harry) and Thomas Richards were siblings then this obviously could not be the correct family.
Until the relationship between Thomas and Cordelia can be proved one way or another the above must remain in the mix but from the reading of the Will I also suspect Thomas may have been unmarried at the time the Will was written.
CT
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Post by distracted on Nov 9, 2023 20:26:11 GMT -5
I realize this thread is over 5 years old now but this is also my family. The names are indeed confusing and not all males in the line spelled their surname the same. My descent is through Thomas HOCKEN of Lelant who was my 3 X great grandfather. His youngest son James Richards HOCKEN (note the correct "s" on Richards) was my 2 X gr grandfather. If anybody has had any luck sorting out this puzzle I'd like to hear from you.
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Post by zibetha on Nov 9, 2023 22:43:00 GMT -5
Greetings, Distracted, As you see, 5 years passed between my original query and the "new" information discovery this fall. I am still trying to go further back on this re: Richards and Hocken ancestors. What I can say since my last post is that I have no doubt about the Berryman connection. I've worked out over 2 dozen DNA matches so far, the majority of which trace back to common ancestors Mark Berriman and his wife Eleanor. A big piece of my Cornish ancestry pie is no longer missing Zib P.S. Feel free to message me; you could well be on my tree already
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Post by zibetha on Nov 9, 2023 23:04:09 GMT -5
As an aside, I've found that the Elizabeth Richards murdered at the Praed's Arms was the wife of Capt. Hugh Richards who owned it prior to the Hocken family. He was a mariner born in Wales whose first wife was a widowed Elizabeth Johns. He next married Sophia Wade, who appears to have also been a widow. I do not see a connection between the two Richards families. But, never say never!
Zib
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Post by zibetha on Nov 19, 2023 1:42:47 GMT -5
As I slowly progress on this family line, I received a message from a DNA match in the Netherlands on my father's side of the family in Belgium. That prompted me to look at other matches on My Heritage where I have not had much luck heretofore. Lo and behold, Hockens have appeared, and I have isolated a DNA line. My new match is a daughter of a woman who was adopted in New Zealand. I am in contact with the family. Take the test Zib
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Post by distracted on Feb 23, 2024 23:46:22 GMT -5
I have to now blitz this line, make some sense of it, and do my due diligence. In early June of this year, I am flying to England and spending 2 weeks in Carbis Bay. I intend to do a lot of exploring in the churchyard in Lelant and do some visits to other nearby towns where our family lived. I will be taking many photos.
If any of you want me to look at anything in particular there I would appreciate your guidance and input.
Cornish Terrier, you mentioned a will of Cordelia Harry's. Would you point me, please, in the right direction so I could review this?
We intend to rent bikes for any longer excursions and will be on foot for most of the trip. I am quite excited about this journey.
Distracted
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