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Post by keweenawgreta on Sept 18, 2018 18:03:56 GMT -5
I know this is a long shot, but perhaps someone here can help. I am descended from a Penrose family that lived in Penzance. I have documented my family back to a William Penrose (died in PZ in 1848, aged 84). William married Anne Williams in 1795, and they had one daughter Mary Ann Penrose, b 1799 and baptized in PZ. Mary Ann Penrose had three children out of wedlock: Priscilla Stevens Penrose, b. 1823 and baptized at St Mary , PZ; Andrew Stevens Penrose, b 1829 and baptized at St Mary, PZ; and William Henry Penrose, b 1832 and baptized in PZ. Andrew Stevens, writer of PZ, was named as the father of the first two children. Does anyone know of these two?I have not been able to trace them. The last of Mary Ann’s children was my great-great-grandfather, William Henry Penrose. I believe he was the son of William Rodda (died 1834) as he lived with the William Rodda’s mother, Rebecca Rodda (widow of John) and her family and learned the butcher trade from them. While living at the Roddas, William Henry Penrose was called grandson in the 1851 census. William H. Penrose married Ann Rodda in 1856. I do not know if she was connected to the Rebecca Rodda family. My real question deals with the William Penrose (Mary Ann’s father) who died in 1848. His death certificate states he was aged 84 when he died, but I have not found a record of baptism anywhere. I have a suspicion that William Penrose might be the son of a man called James Penrose, a tinner from St. Just, who married Joan Stone (the widow of George Carah, miller of Gulval) of Gulval and St Just in 1765. It is possible that William Penrose may have been born to James and Joan prior to their marriage and baptized the day of their marriage but the baptism was unrecorded. I think this is a possibility because signatures on various documents seem to connect my William to the family members of James and Joan. If anyone has any clues regarding this Penrose family (William Penrose; Anne Williams (had she married a Pengelly first?), James Penrose the tinner of St. Just (was his first wife Ann Thomas of St Just?) or Joan Stone, please comment. Thank you!
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Post by spikeharwood on Sept 18, 2018 18:19:27 GMT -5
That was quick. Welcome Greta!
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Post by keweenawgreta on Sept 18, 2018 18:37:18 GMT -5
Thanks, Spike. I appreciated the suggestion!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 18, 2018 21:55:08 GMT -5
Hi Greta and Welcome. I spent quite a bit of time on this same problem several years ago and was never able to solve it. I think it is certainly possible that William was a son of James but like you I have never been able to find anything to prove it. When William married he had a James Penrose as witness. This is not the elder man (m. Joan Carah) but it could well have been the son of James and it does offer some possibility of a link. Regarding the marriages of the earlier James Penrose - there is a marked difference in the 1758 signiature to that of James Penrose when he married Joan Carah in 1765. I would be inclined to think we had two different men involved but it is possible for a signiature to change a little over the years. There is also the problem of the marriage record in 1765 which makes no mention of James being a widower even though Joan Carah is shown as a widow. The dilemma here is that there was never any consistency with what was recorded - widowed men were often recorded as bachelors and widows often as spinsters but much of the time there was simply no record at all of the status of the parties being married. Based on that it is certainly possible that James Penrose was first married to Ann Thomas and a second marriage is supported by the 1763 burial of 'Ann wife of James Penrose' at St Just! About the only item I have in my database on this family that you have not mentioned is that after her liaisons with William Rodda and Andrew Stevens I believe Mary Ann Penrose married John Cobbett Bonner (a widower) at Madron on 25th July 1841. Nothing more I can offer at the moment. CT
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Post by keweenawgreta on Sept 19, 2018 10:26:33 GMT -5
Hello, Cornish Terrier. I know you and I spent a great deal of time with this in the past. You are the one who helped me with the signatures. I do know Mary Ann Penrose married John Cobbett Bonner, and he left her to go to Illinois. When Mary Ann died in 1863, she was said to be married; however John had actually died in Illinois in 1856. I believe John went to Illinois because he had an uncle living near there. John was a tailor in PZ and continued as a tailor in Illinis. He lived alone and died of "heart trouble." I had a signature expert examine the signature of the James Penrose who married Ann Thomas and of the James Penrose who married Joan Stone, the widow of George Carah. The expert said they were enough alike to be the same person but he would not declare them to be an exact match. I have his written report in my files at my other home. Regarding the fact that James was not mentioned as a widower. I am finding many records that leave out the married state. When Anne Williams married William Penrose in 1795 she is not called a widow; however, it appears she had married prior to her marriage to William Penrose. It seems she had married a John Pengelly in 1776 and had three children with him. I have no idea what happened to John Pengelly. This same Anne Williams might have married William Chesterfield in 1791. No idea where Chesterfield went either. Anyway, in 1795 Anne Williams, my 4x great grandmother, married William Penrose and they had daughter Mary Ann Penrose. I do know Anne Williams was the daughter of Thomas Williams and Honour Pengelly, Where William Penrose came from is my problem. I have traced the James and Ann (Thomas) Penrose Family, lookinf for clues. I have a complete tree of James Penrose back into the early 1600s and for his son Richard. Daughter Ann who was born in 1763 and whose birth was probably the cause of Ann Thomas Penrose's death, died in 1767. James' son Richard married Prudence Stone (there is that Stone name again) in 1788, and they had six children. One of their children was William Penrose who was a Baptist minister--an interesting character, to say the least!! I do believe you and I share some DNA. You are shown as a match on Gedmatch to EHGreta (that's me!). I do believe my documented Penrose Line will end with William Penrose and be a long line of ?? into the past. I can document his marriage and death, but that is all. Thanks again for your input and all the help in the past! Greta Penrose Erm
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 19, 2018 12:27:32 GMT -5
Hi Greta - I must say that when I found myself confronted with another Penrose query and then noticed 'Greta' as part of the new username I did begin to have some suspicions that it may have been you! I am still far from convinced that Anne Williams was previously married to John Pengelly. Although it did happen from time to time it was most unusual to find a woman marrying for a second time under her maiden name. If the children disappeared as Pengelly and then reappeared as Williams it would help the case but for now the lack of any other supporting evidence plays against it for me. If Ann had been deserted and there were no children it would make a lot more sense though. Your next point about the potential marriage to William Chesterfield, again under her maiden name of Williams, would be stretching things just a little too far! But then it does not pay to ignore any possibilities in this game! However, after looking at the three marriages involved I think the Chesterfield marriage can probably be ruled out. In each of the three marriages the bride signed with a mark and in each case that mark is significantly different. But the marked difference between the three does stand out - in the Chesterfield marriage the bride's mark is quite fine and lightly made although in form it does bear a resemblance to the Pengelly marriage. But in the Pengelly marriage and in the Penrose marriage the marks made by the bride are both firm and bold. I won't rule out any possibility absolutely but …………. But there was one thing that did strike me about the Chesterfield marriage that makes me wonder if perhaps that Anne Williams may not have been from Penzance/Madron even though she was resident there at the time of marriage. There could be a chance that she was actually from Crowan given the first witness to the marriage was Esther Trewhela! I compared the signiature of Esther to that of the Esther Trewhela who married Joseph Pascoe at Crowan in 1793 and there is no doubt it is the same person. And Esther Trewhela was baptized at Crowan in 1767 daughter of Thomas Trewhela and Martha Blewett. DNA - I find it very difficult to understand how you and I could come up as a match. Unless you have Singleton, Landrigan, O'Neill or Prentice in your background then any connection would have to be Cornish and I have no Penrose or Rodda in my background. I still haven't really started much work with DNA results but so far I am finding that maybe half a dozen 'matches' out of several hundreds so far show any sign of being genuine. Time will tell! CT
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Post by keweenawgreta on Sept 19, 2018 13:07:24 GMT -5
All I can tell you, CT, is that my documented Penrose/Rowe family did not always "play by the rules." Nothing surprises me. There are cases of "married widows" left in Cornwall and of abandoned wives in the US. Why would a woman have three children out of wedlock, marry another when in her 40s, and then have her husband take off to America and never return? Why would a father commit a son to Bodmin at age 19 with a "head injury" and leave him there until the son died at age 42? Why would a father have nothing to do with a son? Why would two brothers who live a block from one another raise their children and deny that the children related to the other kids with the same last name? Why would a son take off at age 17 and travel the world, attempt to enter the US but be denied due to the likelihood of becoming a public charge, make an unsuccessful attempt to save a girl from drowning but leave the country when her wealthy parents try to "help" him, and finally die when infection sets in after sustaining injuries while getting entangles in an anchor rope. How about a man who drunkenly drives a pony and trap home from his mistress' home and literally flies out of the cart breaking bones and dying a few days later due to sepsis? These are just a few examples of the people in my tree, and I have documentation for all. I also must claim them all.
The reason I first came to think my Anne Williams had married John Pengelly was that I have so many Pengelly DNA matches. I do know Anne's mother was a Pengelly. I also found it strange that Anne Williams was marrying for the first time at age 38.
As far as our DNA match, I have no clue. It is a very small amount on chromosome 18. Probably all of Cornwall is related that way!!
Greta
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 19, 2018 13:56:36 GMT -5
Hi Greta - there are always things that need explanation and there are certainly some in my lot! But, as you have done, it is best to do the research and, if at all possible, find proof to confirm suspicions, theories, stories that often seem absurd. I've had things in my database for nearly 40 years that I 'think' should reasonably belong somewhere but there has been enough of a niggling doubt for me to not place them where I think they belong. In some cases I have managed to exhaust all other possible options and have made the adjustments.
Anyway, having said earlier that there are no Penrose names in my background I just came across something odd. I have been updating my database prior to getting serious with the DNA results and in doing so found a very tenuous Penrose link. In 1888 there is a marriage in the Helston district for a John Trewhella Nankervis to Kate Lavinia Mary Penrose. I haven't yet worked out who Kate is but John T Nankervis was the son of John Nankervis and Elizabeth Trewhela who married at Crowan in 1866. Elizabeth Trewhela's family traces back to the 1686 Camborne marriage of Charles Trewheelah and Margery Luke.
Now, there was a Trewheeler family that went to Russia about 1815 and my research shows that they also trace back to the 1686 Camborne marriage. I took a Y-DNA test recently and the first results of that show that my Towednack family and the Russian family are definitely connected which in turn means that the Crowan family is also linked.
If Kate Penrose belongs somewhere in your Penrose line then it 'could' explain the match although at 5.1 generations it does seem a little close. Indications are that the Russian link is many generations beyond that.
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 19, 2018 14:04:21 GMT -5
Kate Penrose appears to have been born at Camborne in 1865 to a Richard Penrose (born about 1832 Ladock) and Elizabeth Lavers who married at Plymouth in 1861.
CT
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Post by keweenawgreta on Sept 19, 2018 15:23:18 GMT -5
Would it not be hilarious if your Penrose was the key to my puzzle? One never knows. I have several Penrose trees going back from 1770. One of these days I may be able to link my William to one of them.
Once again thank you!! Greta
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Post by keweenawgreta on Sept 19, 2018 18:47:45 GMT -5
CT,
I traced Kate Livinia Mary Penrose to Richard and Mary (Lavers) Penrose. Richard, b 1832 in Ladock, was the son of James and Mary (Juliffe) Penrose, married in Dec 1830 in Ladock. James, b 1795 in Ladock, was the son of Richard and Rachel (Harvey) Penrose married in Jun 1793 in Ladock. I have not yet found a birth record for Richard Penrose who married Rachel Harvey. I believe Richard had first married a Grace Williams in 1784 in Ladock. Grace died on the 16th of Jun 1793 while giving birth to a daughter Grace. Richard, with an infant and young children mourned for one week and married Rachel Harvey on 23 Jun 1793. Baby Grace was baptized in July of 1794, the daughter of Grace and Richard. Mother Grace was dead but this was not noted. Baby Grace died on 4 July 1794. Now to discover who this Richard is. He appears to be about the same age (born about 1760 according to first marriage in 1784) as my William Penrose, who was born about 1764.
More Puzzles!!!!!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 19, 2018 20:14:28 GMT -5
Don't stress too much over this one. It would certainly be nice to identify Richard but somehow I think that line might be wandering away from any DNA connection. That could be just one of the 'phantom' matches or the match may lie somewhere else totally unexpected. I have my hands full with the Trewhella (var.) side right now trying to get my database updated as I have been nominated as the best person to interpret results for a small group that have taken the Y-DNA test. That would be my cousin dropping me in it! That does not mean I am not interested in our possible match or in any other matches but I do have to get things in order so that I can hopefully make life a little easier for myself. CT
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Post by keweenawgreta on Sept 20, 2018 9:04:47 GMT -5
CT
I am going to let this rest. Have fun with your DNA project!
Greta
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 20, 2018 14:24:54 GMT -5
Greta - whilst working through my database updates I have already stumbled over a few things that have tidied up old loose ends. At some point I need to go back to my pre-1750 data which will involve areas from the Isles of Scilly up to at least the St Columb and St Enoder area so there is always the chance that I might turn up something else. And, of course, who knows where the Y-DNA project is going to lead! CT
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Post by keweenawgreta on Sept 21, 2018 18:21:09 GMT -5
CT, Is this where our DNA connection comes from? If I have done my Rowe family tree properly, I have Trewheela on my Rowe branch. My 4x great-grandmother is Mary Trewhella, b in 1760 in Towednack to James Trewheela and Ann Tregear. She married John Rowe, tinner of Gulval, on 27 May 1778. Their first child, Mary Rowe, was baptized on 21 Feb 1779 in Gulval. Mary Rowe married John Rowe (son of Richard Rowe and Cordelia Uren) on 29 Dec 1804 in Gulval. Their son Alexander, baptized on 20 Mar 1818 in Gulval, married Selina Smith Nicholls (illegitimate daughter of Ann Nicholls) in Gulval on 12 May 1850. Their daughter Selina Rowe, baptized 20 May 1860 in Gulval, married William Henry Penrose (son of William Henry and Ann Rodda) in Penzance on 1 Mar 1885. Their son Frederick Norman Penrose, born on 10 April 1892 is my paternal grandfather.
I am not sure where you fit in with this Mary Trewheela, but you can see where I do. Greta
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