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Post by artangel on Jan 24, 2018 18:10:39 GMT -5
Writing from South Australia. My grandfather's family were I believe Cornish, surname Paul. From a very brief reading of some of the posts I have just discovered that 'Paul' seems to be a place in Cornwall, I hadn't realised that. Some of his relatives had the surnames Tiddy, Marsh, Hill.
My grandfather was quite dark, and I have heard the 'rumours' that Cornish people can have Spanish, French ancestry. I have just ordered an Ancestry DNA kit so I'm looking forward to what that might show. Being half Irish, 1/2 Cornish and 1/4 Devon, it might just show that I'm pretty much 100% Celtic - but I'm looking forward to some surprises!
My grandfather's family were associated with the Yorke Peninsula (South Australia), as one would expect, there being several mining towns there where many Cornish people settled. Pasties are a well known and popular food here!
Cheers
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 24, 2018 23:11:37 GMT -5
Welcome to Penwith Genealogy. Paul is a Parish in West Cornwall just around the south coast from Penzance and it is also a surname found in Cornwall. If you know something about your grandfather and the first of your family in Australia then feel free to post some information and we may be able to make a start on helping you find where your family came from. Don't post sensitive information or information about people still living but if you can give us enough to work with then it should not be too difficult to help you get the start you need. CT
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Post by artangel on Jan 27, 2018 6:04:47 GMT -5
Hello,
I really don't know very much about my grandfather's family, except that his mother's name was Elizabeth Hill (I don't believe I know his father's name, but will do some delving). They may have come from near Plymouth, as my grandmother's family I think were from there, and my mother seemed to think that the two families knew each other in England, before they came to Australia (my grandmother's father's name was Nicholas Marden Howard) Thank you for your reply, I will see if I can uncover anything more!
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Post by artangel on Jan 27, 2018 6:10:15 GMT -5
It was my grandfather's parents who were the first to come here (possibly 1830's) (the other side of the family, from Devon, came here about 1839) My grandfather had a sister (name?) who died at 18; I think there may have been other siblings (boys?) Sorry, it's a bit sketchy!
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Post by artangel on Jan 27, 2018 6:18:27 GMT -5
My apologies - my grandfather's name was Hedley (James?) Paul
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Post by sue on Jan 27, 2018 7:12:00 GMT -5
As I understand it, your paternal Gmother’s father’s name was Nicholas Marden Howard. I am picking up on this as a specific piece of information that could well be traceable in online transcribed records, from which moving in different directions might get you somewhere. Seaching www.freebmd.org.ukfor “Nicholas M Howard” any time, any of births, marriages & deaths, I get a hit of Nicholas Marsden Howard marrying in the Quarter ending December 1838 (the very first 3 months of these civil records being created in the UK) in the Bristol registration District. Bristol is on the edge of the West Country of England. The wife was one of Ann Susannah Eliza Frappell, Mary Ann Freeman, Mary Smith or Sarah Drewett Tozer. There is nothing that stands out when searching this website for e.g. a birth for a James Hedley Paul. However, if we take it that the information about your paternal Gfather coming from Cornwall is correct, turning to the parish records for Cornwall to be found at www.cornwall-opc-database.orgthere is an entry worth investigating: baptism 4 April 1866 Quethiock of James Hedly(?) Paul to father James a miner of Churchtown & his wife Emmeline(?). The “?”s are because the transcriber was unable to read the handwritten record clearly. On this same website you can find the marriage of a James Paul to a Emlyn Jane Widger 30 May 1865 Quethiock. I am not sure this information fits with what you know from family information. The baptism record can also be found on www.familysearch.orgwhere the mother's name is transcribed as Elizabeth Jane. Unfortunately the burial transcription record (that I am guessing may be to do with your ancestors, I don't know...) for Hedley James Paul on old.findagrave.comgives only the location, Centennial Park Cemetery Pasadena, Mitcham City, South Australia, Australia PLOT General D, Path 10, Grave 717 "Note: from Payneham; AGE at Death: 85"; but as you live in S Aus you should be able to get the death information from there, calculate the birth and hopefully find reference to parents' names on the death certificate. I think perhaps you might be better starting with sound building bricks i.e. establishing for definite the names, births, deaths & marriages of each of your grandparents, then work back carefully one step at a time in Australian records to probably ship manifest arrivals in Aus, which could give you the link back to place & name in Cornwall for the relevant line. Otherwise you may be working on mixed up oral information which leads you up long & winding garden paths! Sue
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 27, 2018 7:59:57 GMT -5
Perhaps this might be a start ..... The Australian Birth Index shows the birth of a Hedley James Paul in 1881 to parents William Henry PAUL and Mary Ann HILL - birth registered at Daly, South Australia. Also in South Australia is the birth of a William Henry PAUL at Adelaide in 1849 to parents John PAUL and Ann POOLEY. From FamilySearch there is the marriage in the December Qtr of 1846 at Stoke Damerel, Devon - John PAUL and Mary Ann POOLEY. (I should mention here that the Index shows the four grooms and four brides of four marriages recorded on the page of the register that is indexed. Without further evidence it is only supposition at the moment that John Paul and Mary Ann Pooley became husband and wife.) Given this is the only marriage between 1837 and 1850 involving a John Paul married to a Pooley I should think it a very good chance that this is what you are after but we do need to check further. It is always possible that William Henry was a later child and that his parents were married before July 1837 when Civil Registration began. Turning attention to the GRO Index which now includes the maiden name of the mother I found the following births:- Georgina Wilmot PAUL (mother's maiden name Pooley) registered September Qtr 1853 Stoke Damerel This is the only birth I can find between 1846 and 1858 for a Paul with mother's maiden name Pooley in the Stoke Damerel area and their appears to be no other marriage that could account for her. This suggests the possibility that, if she belongs to the same family, the family may have returned to England for a short time. Another check of FreeBMD shows there were a number of Paul families in the Stoke Damerel area during the period 1837-1855. No doubt many of these were there before and after those dates but I was only interested in the period involving John Paul for now. Rather than continue off on tangents I think we should concentrate on the 1846 Marriage and also on William Henry Paul. All the rest of the above can be put aside for now. William Henry is the only child I can find for John Paul and Ann Pooley in the Australian Birth Index. He married Mary Ann Hill at Enfield, SA 22nd March 1880 and the indexed record shows his father as James Paul. This could be an indication that his father may have died whilst William was very young or it could be an error in transcription. Mary Ann Hill's father is named as John Tristan Hill. I've now gone the long way around and 'fired up' an almost ancient Laptop which is where my SA BDM Indexes are kept. (They won't run under Win10) Starting up this Laptop means a wait of around 15 minutes before you can actually do anything!! Anyway, there is certainly just one child registered to John Paul and Ann Pooley (William Henry in 1849) and I also searched PAULL just in case. For William Henry Paul and Mary Ann Hill there are six children (only looking at the basic information for now):- Hedley James born 10th March 1881 Eva Blanche born 14th November 1882 Minnie born 10th May 1884 Horace Howard born 25th February 1886 Frank William born 11th July 1888 Robert Cambpell born 1st September 1890 Well, well, well - I think you can ignore the marriage information from Stoke Damerel that I included in the above. The SA Marriage Index shows that John PAUL and Ann POOLEY were married at Holy Trinity Church in Adelaide 28th December 1847. John Paul was age 22 and Ann Pooley age 27 but unfortunately the names of their father's were not recorded. But we do now know that John Paul was born 'about' 1825 and Ann Pooley 'about' 1823. As their ages could be a little inaccurate it is best to wait for further evidence before using these details to try and find parents. William Henry Paul and Mary Ann Hill were married at St Clement's Church, Enfield 22nd March 1880. South Australian Death Registrations 1842-1915Ann PAUL died 12th February 1855 at Adelaide age 38 - wife of John Paul John PAUL died 28th February 1906 at Adelaide age 81 John Paul was buried at West Terrace Cemetery 16th July 1906 according to the Adelaide Cemeteries Authority Records. There is an error somewhere as I don't think they would have waited nearly six months to bury John after he died!! (Both dates are correct as I found them in the records.) The burial details are:- West Terrace Cemetery Section: Road 5 Extension Row Number: Q Site Number: 3 Service Type: Burial Hope that gives you something to work with and once you have looked it all over we can start looking for a record of when John and Ann arrived in Australia. Not a lot to help us identify John or Ann as yet but there is enough there to start searching. If they came from Cornwall it will be much easier as there are so many more records available to search. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 27, 2018 8:06:30 GMT -5
I see Sue and I have been busy at the same time ............ but following different paths we seem to have come up with some quite different information! I will try and look at both sets of information again tomorrow and see where everything fits with the information you have provided. I must admit that my searching was based on the earlier information prior to the mention of Nicholas Marden Howard. Will see what I can come up with tomorrow. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 27, 2018 16:21:41 GMT -5
I've been doing a little more searching before heading off for a few hours sleep. Your grandfather was Hedley James Paul born at Maitland, South Australia 10th March 1881 to William Henry Paul and Mary Ann Hill who married at St Clement's Church, Enfield, SA 22nd March 1880. William Henry Paul was born at Tungkillo Mines, SA 24th July 1849 the only child of John Paul and Ann Pooley who married at Holy Trinity Church Adelaide 28th December 1847. Hedley James Paul married Arabella Emma Howard in Victoria in 1911 and I presume returned to South Australia where Arabella had also been born. Arabella Emma Howard was born at Gladstone, SA 4th March 1878 daughter of John Howard and Elizabeth Jane Howard who married at the residence of Charles Dallen Howard at Springton, South Rhine, SA 20th December 1864. Arabella was the sixth of seven children to this couple. Nicholas Marden Howard was the father of John Howard and, therefore, the grandfather of Arabella Emma Howard. Elizabeth Jane Howard was daughter of another John Howard. John Howard (son of Nicholas) and Elizabeth Jane Howard (daughter of John) were both born about 1839 and, presumably, both in England. Tapping into the work done by Sue a little earlier and combining that information with a check of the GRO Index and the 1841 Census and I can now tell you that Nicholas Marden HOWARD married Sarah Drewett TOZER in the Bristol Registration District in the December Qtr of 1838. The birth of their son John was registered at Bristol in the December Qtr of 1839 and the family can be found in the 1841 Census at Newfoundland Street, Bristol. Nicholas Marden Howard was a Schoolmaster. Identifying a birth and parents for Elizabeth Jane Howard might prove a little more difficult but at least we have a pretty fair start. CT
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Post by artangel on Jan 28, 2018 5:57:25 GMT -5
Thank you SO much, you've worked so hard! Yes, you're right about Hedley James, it all fits, and I remember now the name Mary Ann Hill. I didn't know the background of William Henry Paul, or the details of places of birth, residence and burial. This is great to know.
The other side - (the Devon family, Nicholas Marden Howard), this all fits with things I wrote down from my mother's oral record - but you have given extra details I didn't know. Some places of birth and marriage are a surprise (but actually fit)The name Tozer is correct.
(It was an unusual thing - two Howard brothers from one family married two Howard sisters from another family. The two Howard families were unrelated, but lived in the same district)
Thank you for all the extra details I didn't have, this is very helpful. Aren't you efficient!
Cheers
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Post by artangel on Jan 28, 2018 5:58:50 GMT -5
Thank you SO much, you've worked so hard! Yes, you're right about Hedley James, it all fits, and I remember now the name Mary Ann Hill. I didn't know the background of William Henry Paul, or the details of places of birth, residence and burial. This is great to know.
The other side - (the Devon family, Nicholas Marden Howard), this all fits with things I wrote down from my mother's oral record - but you have given extra details I didn't know. Some places of birth and marriage are a surprise (but actually fit)The name Tozer is correct.
(It was an unusual thing - two Howard brothers from one family married two Howard sisters from another family. The two Howard families were unrelated, but lived in the same district)
Thank you for all the extra details I didn't have, this is very helpful. Aren't you efficient!
Cheers
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 28, 2018 6:38:20 GMT -5
Idly considering options for trying to find John Paul arriving in South Australia and I may possibly have found him. The State Library of South Australia series 'Bound for South Australia' project has been in progress for a long time now and much indexing of ships and passengers has been completed up to the early 1850s. As John Paul and Ann Pooley married in late 1847 I decided to start in that year and work backwards for a few years to see if I might find something of interest. In the 'South Australian Passenger Lists 1847' there is a record of the 'Aboukir' from London and Plymouth arriving at Adelaide 4th September 1847 (three months before the marriage) and amongst the passengers on that trip were one John PAULL along with one Ann POOLEY! I am wondering right now if this might possibly be the couple who married in December. Before further comment it is worth noting that at the time of her marriage Ann Pooley was at least a couple of years older than John Paul. Based on the marriage record I had John born about 1825 and Ann about 1823 and I remember suggesting that we look for further information before using those ages to try and pin down baptisms and parents. What I forgot to point out was that when Ann Pooley died in 1855 her age was recorded as 38 which placed her birth closer to 1817 and thus suggested she may have been around 8 years older than John Paul. Those combined records caused me to wonder at the possibility that Ann may have been previously married. Interesting - I just looked at the 1847 marriage record again and it actually says the bride was age 27 and so born about 1820. This better matches the death record and indicates she may have been a little loose with the truth given her husband was several years younger. Now, after finding the indexed record of the 'Aboukir' I checked for other sources of information for that voyage. FamilyHistorySA has a passenger index 'Passenger Lists South Australia' from which a search produced the following:- PAULL John arrived in SA 1847-09-04 aboard Aboukir from London 47-05-20 via Plymouth POOLEY Ann, Elizabeth, Emmeline, Mary arrived in SA 1847-09-04 aboard Aboukir from London 47-05-20 via Plymouth From another source:- Note in particular the reference to 'no Devonshire miners' - this suggests that John Paul may well have been amongst the Cornish miners. This link ( stagebarn.com/phillip/aboukirlist.htm) shows the complete list of passengers but unfortunately does not list the ages of John Paull or of the Pooleys. It is most annoying .... and disconcerting ...... that I can so far find no trace of Elizabeth, Emmeline or Mary Pooley after their arrival with Ann in 1847! I had been hoping that I would find marriages or death records for at least a couple of them that might help identify them. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 28, 2018 7:25:34 GMT -5
Whilst searching Ancestry Family Trees I have just found a copy of the marriage certificate for John Paul and Ann Pooley. It is quite simple and with little information but it does show that both John and Ann were bachelor and spinster at the time of the marriage. Now that information suggests one of two things - the other three Pooley girls on the Aboukir with Ann were sisters (or maybe cousins) OR they were illegitimate daughters and she was indeed unmarried. The fact that I cannot find them after arrival in SA is still very annoying as it means I am unable to prove any theory I might have. Of course I guess there could be one other possibility - Ann wasn't quite truthful when saying she was a spinster!
Some of these online trees suggest that John Paul was baptized at St Agnes in November 1826 son of William Paull and Elizabeth Tonkin and that he remarried in 1857 and had four more children. Those trees also state that he died at Burra in either 1870 or 1879. At this stage I have to say that I don't believe a word of it!! In the first place John Paul could not write and used his 'mark' when signing the 1847 marriage document whereas John Paull in 1857 could write quite well. And whilst a man could learn to write (and many often did) there is still the fact of the 1906 death of John Paul at Adelaide age 81.
Stuck again .. but at least some progress has been made.
CT
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Post by artangel on Jan 29, 2018 21:25:10 GMT -5
Thank you so much again, you've really worked hard on this - and I'm actually amazed at how many South Australian records you have been able to access, I had no idea you could do that from such a distance.
Yes some of this sounds a bit confusing and contradictory, (I will sit down later and nut it all out) but there are things where you've hit the nail on the head. I'm pretty sure you are right with 'Mary Ann Hill', and on the other side 'Sarah Drewett Tozer', I believe I've got that recorded somewhere; yes Nicholas Marden Howard was a 'schoolmaster'. On the Paul side I believe John was a 'bootmaker' (rather than a miner), seem to recall my mother mentioned this. Mary Ann Hill's father I think was John Distin (rather than 'Tristan', maybe misheard?)Hill, and I had thought his wife was maybe Elizabeth Hill (but I could be mistaken).
Hedley James Paul did have a sister 'Minnie' (died at 18, he was very fond of her) Thank you for filling in who the other siblings were, the name Horace now rings a bell too. Now I know I may possibly have cousins here that I didn't realise, that's really nice.
The name Pooley is totally new to me, don't think I ever came across it, at all.
Somehow, through my grandfather's (Paul) line, I am connected to the Durack family (associated with Western Australia) - possibly cousins of his?
Thank you once again!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 30, 2018 1:46:40 GMT -5
I'm in Victoria but many of the records I am quoting are available online. I do have copies of the SA BDM Indexes on my old Laptop but most other stuff I find online.
Now then - John Paul being a shoemaker is possible but he could also have been a miner at least for a while. There are a couple of John Paul(l) shoemakers in the 1841 Census but their ages are at least a couple of years earlier then required to be comfortable suggesting they might be your John. One, for example, was age 28 in 1841 and so (if accurate) born about 1822/3 whereas the information on your John Paul suggests he was born about 1825/6. Each possibility would need to be checked individually to see if he might be eliminated or otherwise.
Paul and Pooley are both names found in Cornwall but they are also found in Devon and other places so it is not an easy task.
Re Mary Ann Hill - I have just found the answer to that problem.
John Distin Hill and wife EMMA (Sanders) arrived at Adelaide 16th July 1839 with one daughter aboard the ship 'Asia' which left London 6th March 1839. Mary Ann Hill was born 19th July 1852 at Dry Creek.
I will try and chase up some more information on this family after I have watched the news.
CT
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