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Post by robyndundas on Nov 19, 2017 3:12:06 GMT -5
Hello,
I have found DNA links that have the following couple as a common thread:
William Curnow (1779-1853) Elizabeth Bolitho (1779-1823)
as my ancestors through:
1. Robert Curnow (1859-1900) – son of John Curnow (1815- 1877), who was William and Elizabeth’s son. His wife was Mary Roach (1821-1900)
2. Richard Berryman Curnow (1867-1919), illegitimate son of Nancy Quick Curnow (born 1842-1923) who is the daughter of Thomas Curnow, William and Elizabeth’s son, and
3. James Curnow (born 1788-1871) - William’s brother who married Dorothy, who is Elizabeth Bolitho’s sister.
In a previous thread we discussed Mary Curnow, son of William Curnow, born about 1843 in Cornwall. His birth and death details are unknown.
These are previous excerpts from the Cornish Terrier and Sue –
The posts are getting a little confusing but I think the Mary Curnow you are asking about is the mother of the William Curnow baptized at Towednack in 1846. That being the case then she was baptized at Towednack 13th June 1816 daughter of William Curnow and Mary Curnow who married at Towednack 26th December 1815. (i.e. they were born Curnows by birth!)
William Curnow senior was son of Thomas Curnow and Honour Michell ...... Mary Curnow was daughter of Michael Curnow and Mary James.
And William Curnow son of single woman Mary, baptized 17 Aug 1846 Towednack of Penzance 1851/61 probably lodger born Madron at Ludgvan with Honeychurch couple seems to be on Q Bee 1864 to Aus age 18 next to Richard Curnow but he is not a brother.... QB arrived 11 Mar 1865....
I am wondering if there is a link between Mary Curnow, baptized 1816 at Towednack and the family of William Curnow and Elizabeth Bolitho. I can’t find out definitely where any of her grandparents were born and who their parents, siblings etc were….
Also, if this William Curnow, son of Mary, was the lodger at the Honeychurch’s, he was living with them from age 5 to 15 at least. Do you know why he would have been living there? Are they related or would it be a foster type arrangement?
If no link exists between Mary and the Curnow/Bolitho's, I will continue to focus on the William's in this family line. If there is a link, it may provide a possible but unconfirmable answer to my quest. There are a couple of William’s there to look at in more detail.
Looking forward to hearing from you,
Robyn
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Post by robyndundas on Nov 19, 2017 3:25:37 GMT -5
Hi Again,
I just checked my DNA matches for Honeychurch and there is a link with one person who is a Honeychurch. He lists 11 Honeychurch's as the main family name in his tree. I'll email him to see if I can find out anything.
Maybe it's a coincidence, although it's an unusual name.
Thanks Robyn
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 19, 2017 4:02:12 GMT -5
Robyn - I am not quite sure that I can follow just what it is you are looking for? You seem to be looking for a link to William Curnow and Elizabeth Bolitho and you show at the start of your post that you have a direct line back to that couple. So just how and where does Mary Curnow of 1816 come into the picture? CT
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Post by robyndundas on Nov 19, 2017 4:50:57 GMT -5
Hi
I have reasonably strong DNA links to William and Elizabeth Bolitho and their offspring. I am wondering if Mary Curnow, born 1816 and her parents are close relations to William and Elizabeth.
If they are, that could put William Curnow, Mary's illegitimate son, born 1846 as a possibility to be my great great grandfather. Inconclusive, but a possibility.
I've tried to work it out myself, but the records I have found don't have much information in them.
I hope this makes sense now and thanks again for the speedy reply.
Robyn
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Post by sue on Nov 19, 2017 6:53:18 GMT -5
Hi Robyn Re Wm Curnow lodging with the Honeychurches as he grew up: my investigations found no blood link; I believe this to have been a foster arrangement (whilst noting that Wm Curnow's father is unknown.) The way to identify Mary Curnow 1816 and her parents & their antecedents, like other persons, is to exhaustively identify all the persons of same names and put together a large jigsaw puzzle yourself using all the available online records (records very preferably, not other people's trees! , I think I mentioned this before, with I promise no intention to cause offence to anyone ) Yes, it is time-consuming. My own 1000s of hours of research over the years, much done together with CT, has included identifying William Curnows and Mary Curnows via many records, comparison of signatures on documents etc. etc.- and I can say for sure that many trees out there have all sorts of different and provably incorrect placements for William (& other) Curnows...! I am not entirely clear what you are saying about yourself & DNA links to the persons you name descending from the Bolitho sisters who married the Curnow brothers, so I don't want to be unwise and jump in on the basis of perhaps drawing incorrect inferences. And I can tell you now that John Curnow & Mary Roach's son Robert was not born in 1859, but 4 May 1858. Just a small example of it being very important to be working from records, not other people's sometimes inaccurate/not fully detailed research. Also Wm Curnow husband of Elizabeth Bolitho (my GGGGparents) did not die in 1853, but 1852.... nor are those the correct dates for Dorothy Bolitho's husband James Curnow - which could mean that the person(s) with whom you have apparent DNA links is in fact a connection via different persons than you think, never forgetting that these were small communities around the Towednack area in the 17 & early 1800s, so most inhabitants were cousins of some kind via one surname or another..... Slowly, slowly and painstakingly is the way with family history research I'm afraid. When I get back in later I'll re-read some of this to see what I can constructively add, but I think it will require some detailed clarification from you first, please. Sue
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Post by robyndundas on Nov 19, 2017 16:09:45 GMT -5
Hi Sue
Thank you for your reply.
I would like to know if you could help me with the ancestry of Mary Curnow. You have previously kindly told me that she was baptized at Towednack 13th June 1816 daughter of William Curnow and Mary Curnow who married at Towednack 26th December 1815.
You have also told me that William Curnow senior was the son of Thomas Curnow and Honour Michell and Mary Curnow was daughter of Michael Curnow and Mary James.
If possible, through your database could you let me know the year of birth and the parents of these four; Thomas Curnow and Honour Michell and Michael Curnow and Mary James.
I am trying to link this Mary to my family through DNA. I am fortunate in that, my great great grandfather, William Curnow is the only Cornish link in my family tree. This means I can pinpoint his connections pretty easily compared to other people with multiple Cornish ancestors. Although more Cornish ancestors would be great. It certainly is an interesting region and the people are coming alive to me.
I hope this explains things a bit clearer.
Looking forward to hearing from you,
Robyn
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 19, 2017 16:49:22 GMT -5
Hi Robyn - I think that clears it up a little for me. To make things a little easier for Sue I will give you the details of the parents of William Curnow and Mary Curnow but I will let her take care of all the other details that might help you. I do have one point to make before I list those details. I think that if you are trying to 'make Mary fit' you might be taking the wrong approach - there will either be a DNA link or there won't. I may be misunderstanding your comments but if I am not then there is a good chance you will end up quite frustrated. Just like someone persisting in trying to fit the old square peg into the round hole ..... it just won't go! Now then the details you asked for:- Thomas Curnow and Honor Michell married 24th June 1778 Towednack Thomas Curnow - I don't have parents for him in my database so will have to wait on Sue. I have an idea I may have asked Sue about this some time back and possibly just neglected to update my database. Honor Michell - baptized 9th April 1749 at St Just daughter of John Michell and Margaret Lawry Michael Curnow and Mary James married 26th December 1787 Towednack Michael Curnow - baptized 18th May 1760 Towednack son of Thomas Curnow and his 2nd wife Mary Keskeys (he was first married to Martha Curnow at Towednack in 1734) Mary James - baptized 29th November 1761 Towednack daughter of Gabriel James and Mary Trewhella CT
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Post by robyndundas on Nov 19, 2017 23:21:35 GMT -5
Hi
Thanks so much for this. I have three or four Williams that I am looking to see if they fit. If they don't, I'll move on.
If I have the correct information, it should just jump out of the data and everything should then make sense.
As you told me previously that Mary's child, William was one of a few William Curnow's you didn't have a full life story on, I thought I'd give him a turn on my DNA wheel.
Thanks again, I'll let you know how I go...
Robyn
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Post by sue on Nov 20, 2017 14:16:26 GMT -5
Identity of Thomas Curnow who married Honor Michell: I do not know, I have spent sooooo much time on this over the years: I have a whole file labelled Thomas Curnow problems! I have a spreadsheet of all the possible Thomas Curnows of marriageable age - & I throw that field wide - not definitely accounted for elsewhere (the elimination game). I have the mark he made at his marriage to Honor (he did not sign). It has some commonality with the mark made in 1779 in the local Presentment Book by a Thomas Curnow but the more I review it, the more I think no, different. Have not recently ascertained the particular reason for him to be signing the book amongst c 12 other local men on this occasion. I can tell you that the witnesses at the 1778 marriage of Thomas Curnow to Honor Michell were C Michell & Mich Curnow: the latter signature was probably that of Michael Curnow who married Mary James BUT that does not mean these 2 Curnow persons were closely related, as Michael Curnow was one of the better educated/reasonably well-off persons in Towednack. (Michael died soon after, before someone tells me, well, he didn't witness many other marriages! ) If if if if this Thomas Curnow were closely related to witness Michael Curnow, then we would be looking at half-brothers years apart with Thomas being child of Thomas Curnow & his 1st wife Martha Curnow. But I do not have the evidence to jump to that conclusion. I would also note that were Thomas Curnow of the Honor Michell marriage to be brother to Michael, why was he making a mark not signing? Why was not one of his full brothers e.g. Paul/Matthew who were still living not the chosen witness at the ceremony? Trust me, I would dearly like to be able to positively identify the Thomas Curnow of the Honor Michell marriage! But I cannot, although child of Thomas & Martha is right up there as a strong contender. Their children are named Honnor, Thomas, Margaret, William, John & Jacob. Thomas is probably the burial Towednack 17 August 1817 age 66: guess what, there is no matching baptism for this! Children Honnor, Thomas, William & John were alive & kicking, so I cannot see an excuse for a massive error on providing age information at the burial. ) And I think I have this correctly, Mary Curnow of the marriage to Wm Curnow that produced Mary Curnow 1816 mother of illegitimate Wm Curnow who lodges with Honeychurches would thus be related to husband Wm Curnow as half-cousins (do I have this right?) This works in favour of the Thos Curnow~Honor Michell marriage being Thos half-brother to Michael as families often inter-married. The fact that, as I recall, there are no known inter-marriages (or joint emigrations that I noted) between the descendants of Thos Curnow~Honor Michell & the Curnow~Bolitho clan mitigates against Thos Curnow of the Honor Michell marriage being the uncle to those boys. The burial Towednack 23 March 1815 age 75 is of Thomas Curnow 1739 child of Wm Curnow/Jone Trewhella, who was uncle to the Wm & James Curnow who married the Bolitho girls. But but but the mark made at the 1778 Thos Curnow~Honor Michell marriage does not obviously match the mark in the 1779 local Presentment Book for Thomas Curnow. On the other hand the marks at the 1771 & 1776 Thos Curnow Towednack marriages are the same as each other, & William Curnow father of the boys who married the Bolithos is witness at the 1771 Thomas Curnow marriage (said Wm Curnow had a Thos Curnow as his only brother, & they had a joint leasehold property interest in Towednack.) Thus, in my roundabout way of explaining it, I have a dilemna as to the identity of the Thomas Curnow who married Honor Michell. (Other options are available, but I believe they are not readily in the frame...) I must say that I would however be far happier if I could find in my files the photographs I took of the relevant Presentment Book that shows Thomas Curnow "marks", rather than working from my notes about these Marks that I made a few years ago.... so that I could look at these Marks again with 2017 eyes... Ah-ha (this is an edit)I have now found them, & have commenced reviewing the Presentment Book to check I have my facts right about Marks made by Thomas Curnow persons, when compared to marks made by Thomas Curnows @ their marriages in 1770s........ In other words, subject to completing my review of the Presentment Book, the Thomas Curnow who would be a link to the Curnow brothers who married the Bolitho boys I believe I can place out of the equation for you because of my (a few years ago) opinion of the marks (instead of signatures) made on key documents I have examined. Notwithstanding the Michael Curnow of the Mary James marriage connection to the Thomas Curnow~Honor Michell set-up. So the DNA matches you quote don't all work. I am conscious I may not get many marks (no pun intended!) out of 10 for this explanation: sorry! I am trying to be helpful - or at least set out some of my thinking re Thomas Curnows - honest! Sue
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Post by robyndundas on Nov 21, 2017 4:10:30 GMT -5
Dear Sue
Thank you for your fantastic response. I really appreciate the time you have put into this.
Well, back to the drawing board for me. I will continue to look at the DNA links for this William Curnow to see if there are any links elsewhere.
This William is my best bet at this time to be my great great grandfather. Maybe, I'll never be able to confirm it, but a bit more evidence to go towards this outcome would be useful.
Looking forward to your review of the marks.
I'll keep you updated on any of my findings,
Robyn
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 21, 2017 6:40:54 GMT -5
Robyn - what might help here is a simple chart showing your ancestry back to the earliest Curnow you can confirm as being linked. I don't want you to display details of recent relatives online so if it is preferable you could send both Sue and myself a copy via PM or email.
What I am asking for is something like this:-
You | Your parents | Your grandparents | Your great-grandparents
Forget about DNA and forget about who 'might' be linked and just tell us as much as you can about the earliest relative in your direct line who is a Curnow or, in the case of a female, the daughter of a Curnow. Don't cloud the issue but give us the facts as you know them to that one early person who can be confirmed as a direct ancestor.
With that information Sue and I might be able to look at the problem from a completely new and fresh angle which might help us find something you might have missed.
CT
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Post by robyndundas on Nov 24, 2017 21:16:02 GMT -5
Hi
You have helpfully responded to questions about my ancestry previously and confirmed that you had spent a lot of time researching my two Williams to no avail.
However, I am hopeful something may turn up so,
My direct line that I know is:
My father: Robert John Crotty (1930-2016) - born and died at Katoomba, NSW My grandmother: Hellen Louisa Curnow (4 Jan 1897- 7 Jul 1960) - born Dapto, NSW - died Katoomba, NSW My great grandfather: William Curnow (11 Dec 1872- 13 Jun 1947) - born Hill End - died Katoomba, NSW. He had five children with Annie Elizabeth Sprague; Millicent, Hellen, Dorothy and twin boys, Francis and Albert that died soon after birth. My great great grandfather: William Curnow – marriage certificate, dated 30 Jan 1872 states age 29 and place of birth as Cornwall. No other details available.
For the mystery William, I have:
Publican licence – place, hotel names and dates at Tamaboora and Hill End, no other details, some dates as listed below. I have a marriage certificate (30 Jan 1972) and a birth certificate of William (born December 1872). There are no useful details about the father, William except the birth certificate says he is 29 years old and was born in Cornwall. Therefore year of birth most likely is 1843. The details on the certificate are a bit dodgy as we know Ann Elizabeth Pritchard, nee Lamplough was 42 years old but she lists her age as 39 years old and there is also something funny about a declaration made after the birth.... Also the 1 in 1871 looks like it has been changed to a 2, I think. Maybe the young William was born in 1871 and they changed it to 1872 so he would be born in wedlock. They also travelled all the way to Sydney to get married and then put no details on the certificate at all other county of birth, ie Cornwall and that he was a Soap Manufacturer (that sounds unlikely...)
It’s not unlikely that he raised his age by three years and she dropped her aged by three years. Therefore, a year of birth for 1846 could be considered, along with the other close years.
Family oral history reports that his father was a wrestler and that Sampson was a family Christian name. Probably not that helpful as it seems wrestling is a local sport and Sampson seems a pretty common name.
Daphne from the The Hill End society tells me that his father was Robert and also his brother. There doesn’t seem to be any real records to verify this. I think she believes this because there was a Robert Curnow in Hill End in 1872 but I can find no connection between the two men. I have this Robert's marriage certificate and this has as little information as William and Anne's! He married Bridget Lewis. I think he was born 1837 died 1894 at Sunny Corner, NSW. They had a son, Robert born 1871, died, I believe 1947.
Trove also has details of the bankruptcy of William and Ann in 1873.
William was apparently “kicked out” of the family home in about 1873, but he seems to be around a bit after that. Maybe clearing up the bankruptcy and property in Hill End.
The Hill End Family History website has William and Ann having pubs in 1872-73, with William being the publican and licensee. From 1875, Ann is listed as the publican and William as the spouse. I believe he wasn’t with her then from family oral and written notes history. Ann also had a hotel in Araleun, NSW prior to moving to Hill End, NSW.
Ann then moved to Hartley Vale alone and had a pub there in 1879. William is not in the picture then. She also has the Katoomba Hotel, Katoomba in 1881. She is definitely alone there as well.
hillendfamilyhistory.com/history/occupations/c/
As we know, William is listed as having a hotel/inn in Hill End in about 1872. One of the photos in the Holtermann collection, which is in the NSW State Library is of his hotel. Below is the link to a photo of the Victoria Hotel, Hill End tiltled Group outside William Curnow's Victoria Hotel, Reef Street, Hill End, New South Wales, ca.1872 [picture]. The photograph number 18526 and 18576 lists his name as W.C. Curnow.
nla.gov.au/nla.obj-148058751/view
This William is definitely placed in Sandhurst (Bendigo) in 1873 as a temporary resident in bankruptcy paperwork.
That’s all I have. Thanks for looking into this for me.
Robyn
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 25, 2017 3:59:00 GMT -5
Well, I think I might have now been able to unravel a little more of the Queen Bee problem. The numbers quoted (i.e. 359/1 and 359/2) relate to the 'B-Index' which is column 6 in the passenger list on 'TheShipsList'. If my new-found conclusion is correct then William Curnow (age 18) listed as 359/2 would be related to family 359/1 and, I suspect, possibly a nephew. But that might then mean that some earlier Curnow work might have to be re-visited. Family 359/1 is:- Families359/1 Thomas Curnow age 57, a miner from Ludgvan Jane Curnow age 49 Alice White Curnow age 14 Thomas Curnow age 10 Single Men359/1 Richard Curnow age 17 359/2 William Curnow age 18 Richard is actually Richard Rowe Curnow son of Thomas and Jane and was baptized at Ludgvan 10th October 1847 Now, working on the initial family of 359/1 - Thomas Curnow was born at Ludgvan in 1813 son of Hannibal Curnow and his wife Alice nee Rowe who, after being widowed, remarried in 1819 to Joseph White thus accounting for the naming of Thomas' daughter Alice White Curnow. Jane Curnow, wife of Thomas, was born at Ludgvan in 1816 daughter of Matthew Curnow and Jane Williams. And here is the tricky part of the equation - if 18-year old William Curnow 'is' actually related to Thomas and he 'is' the William born illegitimately in 1846 to Mary Curnow then it would seem inevitable that his mother must have been the sister of Thomas Curnow who was born at Ludgvan in 1814. The tricky aspect of this is that we currently have this Mary married to John Michell at Towednack in 1836! My task now is to take another look at the Michell marriage which I will do now before posting any more thoughts on the problem. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 25, 2017 5:55:02 GMT -5
Okay, I have found another solution to the problem of William Curnow and his mother Mary. But I would definitely like some input from Sue before committing to any changes to my database. John Michell and Mary Curnow were married at Towednack in 1836 with John Quick and John Green as witnesses. I only have the Exeter BTs to work from on this marriage so none of the signiatures will have been made by the participants themselves and therefore I am not able to make any comparisons. I think John Green was the Parish Clerk about this time but John Quick would be the witness of more interest although I cannot see any immediate connection of interest. Anyway, in both the 1851 and 1861 Census Mary (Curnow) Michell states she was born at Ludgvan and her ages (35 in 1851 and 46 in 1861) reflect a birth about 1814 or 1815. It was this information that previously had me convinced she must have been the daughter of Hannibal Curnow baptized in 1814 at Ludgvan. But on reviewing all the information again I see that things may not be quite so cut and dried. There is another Mary Curnow who was baptized at Towednack in March 1816. Both parents were apparently born at Towednack as were all the children BUT the family moved to Ludgvan where the three younger children were married. The interesting thing here is that in 1841 the family was living at Amalebrea but in the Census area of Ludgvan yet Amalebrea is actually part of both Towednack and Ludgvan. In effect, the family may never have physically moved from Towednack to Ludgvan but rather have been at Amalebrea all the time while the Census boundary possibly changed. The family I am talking about is as follows:- Matthew Curnow (1783 Towednack s/o Matthew Curnow and Elizabeth Williams) and wife Mary Williams (born Towednack about 1785) who married at Madron in 1811 Children:- Matthew (1811-1886) married Margaret Tyack 1835 Towednack Mary (1816 Towednack-) Elizabeth (1817 Towednack) married William Thomas 1839 Ludgvan John (1820-1853) married Loveday Tredrea 1851 Ludgvan James (1823-1893) married Elizabeth Rowe 1845 Ludgvan It is this Mary that I now think may have been the wife of John Michell - particularly as they named a son Matthew which is a name not occurring in the close family of John Michell or of Hannibal Curnow. If my conclusion is correct then it would mean that the Mary Curnow born at Ludgvan in 1814 to Hannibal would be the mother of illegitimate William Curnow in 1846. This then provides the logical link to Thomas and Jane Curnow on the Queen Bee in 1864/5. This now leaves the problem of Mary (1816 Towednack) daughter of William and Mary Curnow who I currently show as being the mother of William in 1846! This Mary was definitely the mother of Ellen Curnow at Towednack in 1844 as Ellen was with her widowed grandmother at Amalebrea in 1851. But was this also the same Mary Curnow lodging with Ann Pascoe at Madron in 1851 along with a new son named Charles who was then age just 1 month. (This same Charles Curnow was buried at Paul in July 1851) So far it has always been assumed that the one Mary Curnow was responsible for both Ellen in 1844 and William in 1846 but I now have to really wonder if that was so. According to the Towednack Parish Register Mary Curnow was 'of Penzance' when William was baptized in 1846 and in the 1851 Census when William was lodging William and Mary Honeychurch his birthplace was recorded as Penzance. So given Charles Curnow was also born at Penzance in 1851 and his mother Mary was living at Penzance with Ann Pascoe in that year it would seem more logical that he was a brother to William. The conclusion from this is that the mother of Ellen Curnow at Towednack in 1844 and the mother of William (1846) and Charles (1851) are two different people. Mary Curnow mother of Ellen Curnow is almost certainly the one who married Henry Cook at Tavistock in 1855. They had one daughter born at Tavistock in 1858 and by 1861 the family was back at Penzance where Mary died in 1892. Nothing in the Census records to link her to any family except her age (generally indicating a birth about 1816) and her birthplace of Towednack. Based on the fact a child was named Matthew I now think the Mary Curnow who married John Michell in 1836 was more likely the daughter of Matthew Curnow and Mary Williams. Lastly, although I am yet to find her in 1851 or beyond, the suspected link of William Curnow to Thomas and Jane Curnow on the Queen Bee in 1864/5 suggests that William (1846) and Charles (1851) are probably children of Mary daughter of Hannibal and Alice Curnow of Ludgvan. Hopefully that has not caused too much confusion and I will await some feedback from Sue before making any changes. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 25, 2017 6:08:11 GMT -5
AHA - now I can see everything a little more clearly as I have previously spent a lot of time on that particularly family without success.
The mention of a possible brother named Sampson could lead us to the family of John Curnow and his second wife Peggy Bennetts Nankervis who had sons named Sampson in 1835 (died 1840) and 1843. They also had a son William born at Towednack in 1845 for whom I don't currently have any further information. I can find no family involving the name Robert where there is also a William of near the right age so that one might be a red herring.
On the other hand I have just spent a couple of hours working on the 'Queen Bee' query you placed under Non-Cornish Records. The two posts I created in that thread and have now been moved into this thread for continuity. They are the two posts immediatelyh preceding this one.
CT
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