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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 28, 2017 14:52:11 GMT -5
Sorry Jacob but no I haven't. That he was registered as 'Vial' and no mother's name recorded is an indication that he was probably illegitimate and the use of 'Dunn' as a second forename would indicate it was Margaret Vial nee Dunn who was his mother. The fact that his death and burial are recorded as 'Samuel Dunn Quick' is the indication to me that his father was probably a Quick, especially as his mother is known to have been involved with James Quick. The difficulty is identifying just which Quick might have been involved. If James Quick, father of John in 1857, was already in Victoria then logically he would be discounted but there is always the possibility that he made a trip back to Cornwall. The other option I have mentioned previously is that James Quick's younger brother Samuel may have been involved. He did not marry until 1863 and then died in 1866 but if his brother was mining around Liskeard then he also may have been doing so.
CT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2017 15:40:24 GMT -5
Good evening CT
Am I right in assuming that the informant at the death of Samuel was the next door neighbour, Elizabeth Ann Jeffery, as per the 1861 census? If that is so, then the reference to Samuel being a Quick is more easily explained by the neighbour knowing the mother as Margaret Quick (again as per the 1861 census), and therefore naturally assuming her son to be Samuel Dunn Quick? It would also then make sense that Samuel was recorded in the death entry as the son of Margaret Quick with no mention of the father.
Samuel Quick was a tailor according to my records and living at Truro in 1861, he also married in Truro in 1863. I have no evidence to suggest he was in anyway involved with one of his brothers acquaintances? I would be interested to know the information you have to form your opinion CT
Trinklady
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 29, 2017 5:09:39 GMT -5
Having not seen the death certificate myself and having no knowledge of its contents I have no idea so you can go ahead and assume all you like. That he was a tailor and actually at Truro on the night of the 1861 Census does not prevent him having spent time around Liskeard either during or after his brother's time there. It also does not prevent him having visited Liskeard any time before or after the 1861 Census. My comments about the possibility of him having any involvement with Margaret Dunn/Vial are theory only and have never been touted as anything but theory. BTW - I found the Will of James Quick in the Victorian Public Record Office online collections. He died at Wangaratta 13th November 1893 and had been farming at Boorahman. No mention of any children in the Will but he did mention brother John T(eague) Quick of Truro, carpenter, and sister Jane the wife of William Meriville (Merrifield) of Falmouth blacksmith. Should either or both of those siblings predecease him their children were to benefit. He also left his watch and chain to his nephew John James Quick the son of his brother John. CT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2017 12:42:40 GMT -5
Good evening
Perhaps a poor choice of a word on my behalf... the informant at the death was Elizabeth Ann Jeffery. That name coincides with the family living next door in the 1861 census.
On the death entry for James it states that he was single and, like in the will you mentioned, there were no children listed.
Trinklady
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 1:37:15 GMT -5
Good morning CT
I am a bit confused by the above. Do you have a birth certificate, or the relevant details, for a Jane Quick ALLEN? The OPC site has a birth for Jane Quick, daughter of Joseph Quick & Elizabeth ALLEN. Date of birth being the 13th August 1887.
Is this another case of the birth registration in conflict with the Parish register entry?
Trinklady
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 30, 2017 5:16:16 GMT -5
I have quoted the OPC-supplied transcript of the Birth Certificate but, as has been mentioned numerous times on this site, it is not always wise to take information recorded in ANY documents at face value! In this case we are dealing with what is, technically, a false birth registration where a non-existent marriage is implied. The birth was registered under the surname QUICK when in fact as the birth was illegitimate and no marriage had taken place it should have been registered as ALLEN. And before you start going off at tangents again and chasing non-existent marriages and other erroneous data please take note of the following:- It appears that the only time Jane was known as 'Quick' (at least in any documents) was at the registration of her birth. ALL other records I have seen concerning this child show the surname as ALLEN. In fact her baptism record shows that Jane daughter of Bessie Allen of Beach nr. Custom Ho. baptized 2nd September 1887 St Ives1891 Census - at Beach, St Ives as Jane Q ALLEN with her grandparents Joseph and Grace Allen 1901 Census - at The Stennack, St Ives as Jane Q ALLEN with her unmarried mother Elizabeth and three siblings (Indexed in Ancestry as Jane L ALLER but I have submitted a correction changing this to ALLEN) FreeBMD Marriages December Qtr 1905 Volume 5c Page 518 Penzance R.D. William Stevens SHUGG Jane Quick ALLEN William Stevens Shugg was born at Cape Town, South Africa about 1882 to William Bryant Shugg and his wife Mary nee Stevens. 1911 Census - William and Janie Shugg were at Stennack, St Ives with daughter Mary, one of their two children. Janet daughter of William and Jane Shugg of The Stennack, mason bp. 25th October 1907 St Ives (born 12th September 1907) Mary Stevens daughter of William Stevens and Janie Quick Shugg of The Stennack, mason bp. 3rd November 1909 St Ives (born 12th September 1909) Elizabeth Allen's other three known children (all in 1901 Census):- Thirza - born Callington 1892 (this is in the Liskeard R.D. but the birth appears to have been registered at Launceston as Thursa Allen, not mother's name recorded) Thomas - born about 1894 at Bideford, Devon (not yet found in the GRO Index) Ida - born Union Workhouse Madron 8th September 1897 and baptized 20th September 1898 daughter of Elizabeth Allen of St Ives in Workhouse, single woman I was having trouble finding Elizabeth in 1911 but believe I have now located her at King Street, Redruth - as Elizabeth GUY, widow! I will follow up on this and include the additional information in my next post. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 30, 2017 5:54:13 GMT -5
Following on from my last post - Elizabeth Allen had another illegitimate child:- Joseph Champion son of Elizabeth Allen of Digey Square, single woman bp. 25th March 1904 St Ives (born 2nd December 1903) As mentioned in my previous I believed I had finally found Elizabeth Allen in the 1911 Census and the details of her children help prove that it is indeed she. Here is the household in 1911 after which I will reproduce the details of her children again to make the connections clearer:- 1911 Census King Street, Redruth Elizabeth GUY,head, 44, widow, home work, St Ives Cornwall (stated married 20 years, 5 children, 3 living, 2 dead) Thirza GUY, daughter, 19, single, cotton spinner at fuse factory, Calington Cornwall Thomas GUY, son, 18, single, tin miner, Devonport Devon Joe GUY, son, 8, single, school, St Ives Cornwall Jane PAINTER, boarder, 55, widow, Redruth Cornwall (stated married 35 years, 3 children) Nettey SHUGG, visitor, 3, single, home, St Ives Cornwall Once again there appear to be some untruths here! Firstly Elizabeth had never married prior to 1906 and secondly she was certainly the mother of 5 children but as far as I can tell there were 4 still living in 1911. Jane Quick Allen born 1887 St Ives - married William Stevens Shugg in 1905 and by 1911 had 2 children Janet Shugg born 1907 St Ives (Nettey Shugg age 3 living with Elizabeth Guy at Redruth in 1911) Mary Stevens Shugg born 1909 St Ives and living at home with parents in 1911 Thirza Allen born 1892 Callington (Thirza Guy age 19 at Redruth in 1911) Thomas Allen born about 1894 Bideford Devon (Thomas Guy age 18 at Redruth in 1911) Ida Allen born 1897 Madron died December Qtr 1907 at Redruth Joseph Champion Allen born 1903 St Ives (Joe Guy at Redruth age 3 in 1911) FreeBMD Marriages September Qtr 1906 Volume 5c Page 356 James GUY Elizabeth ALLEN James Guy age 48 died at Redruth in the December Qtr of 1907. CT
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Post by jacob on Oct 30, 2017 10:30:39 GMT -5
I am querying your sentence about taking any documents at face value. Having done some transcribing for OPC Cornwall I was sent the original records and copied the information from those. I can only think that the transcriber of the Jane Allen document must have been sent the original records also for the parish they chose to transcribe so the information given on the OPC site must be correct. Can I please ask where else would you get the correct information from other than going back to the originals, where do you get your info from if you don't take the originals as the true record and as you have stated ' it is not always wise to take information recorded in ANY document at face value'
I refer to my other post regarding family trees and stating that they are not all wrong but info gathered should be checked before adding the info to your own family tree, if the original parish records are available then these I believe should be taken as true but I think you are confusing members and other users of this site by stating that ALL/ANY documents could be false.
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Post by zibetha on Oct 30, 2017 11:21:12 GMT -5
Hi, Jacob I would suggest that information on records needs to be taken with "a grain of salt." Thanks to my grandmother for teaching me that expression We are looking at information provided by human beings (sometimes under stress) to other human beings, so there is room for error. From my own experience, a great-great-uncle gave his own name as parent on his father's death certificate, and two of a great-great-grandmother's siblings show up on baptism records with their parent's names instead of their own. In that instance, they were baptized same day in Phillack at St John's Copperhouse as the family's Parish Church was undergoing construction at the time. Zib
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Post by zibetha on Oct 30, 2017 11:30:02 GMT -5
The latter really threw me for a loop as I already had 18 children for my 3x great-grandmother who stated on the US census that she had had 16 children! I think she did not include some who died young.
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Post by jacob on Oct 30, 2017 11:38:29 GMT -5
I agree there is room for error as we find out at times when surnames are spelt differently and as they are heard by the Parish Clerk at the time but the bottom line is that there is nowhere else to go other than by accepting the original of Parish Records. Can I ask what you do or what do any of you on this site do when you are faced with something that doesn't quite fit what you expect to find. Where do you go? Are there other records out there that surpass the originals? Do any of you make the originals work to fit into your tree?
Thanks for your input Zib but I cannot take original records with a grain of salt.
Jacob
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Post by zibetha on Oct 30, 2017 12:06:06 GMT -5
I would suggest you consider it. Martin Harvey gave his own name on his father's death certificate, and I have many records supporting his father as Edward. On my grandmother's side, there's no space for two extra children who are not present on any other record. They don't appear on the GRO registry which did not exist when I made my decision as to exclude them my family tree. Amelia would have had to have quadruplets. Highly unlikely!! The records are mostly accurate. But I am going for the salt shaker as I have lunch Z
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 12:43:12 GMT -5
CT
I find that comment insulting and demeaning.
I simply said I was confused with the data as presented and if you bothered to read my earlier comment I had already agreed that the baptism record and register entry were for the same person.
If it is a crime to disagree with you and look for alternate information by way of enhancing the evidence available for decision making then what do we do... just ask you and take everything at face value???
Trinklady
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Post by jacob on Oct 30, 2017 13:38:43 GMT -5
To consider your comment that records need to be taken with 'a grain of salt' makes me feel as if all the time I spent transcribing records for OPC Cornwall was a waste of time as you consider some of them useless even though they were copied from the original. I know all about human errors but I firmly believe that transcribers do their best just as Parish Clerks of old did their best with the info at hand. I wonder why genealogy sites were set up if not to help all seekers with their families but to hear that the information should not be taken at face value and that the info should be taken with a grain of salt really beggars belief.
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Post by londoner on Oct 30, 2017 14:47:33 GMT -5
I hadn't planned on getting involved in this discussion but I think it is time that you all took a deep breath. Transcribing is not easy, I gave up on the registers I was working on when the writing and abbreviations became impossible for me to translate. I also found it frustrating to have to transcribe as seen when I knew from other records what the correct spelling or information should have been. When it comes to the reliability of certificates... My gt grandmother Jane was registered as James! Whether the registrar was deaf or her father had been celebrating I shall never know. I also have a family member for whom no parish baptism could be found. The only way I could prove he was who I thought he was was from his father's will. So there are rights and wrongs on all sides and we do our best to make sure that information we pass on is as accurate as it can be, and try not to upset anyone along the way.
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