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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2017 12:32:26 GMT -5
Good evening
I have three marriages that I am not able to identify the parties and I was wondering if somebody may have them in their records?
1. James Quick & Margaret Dunn known to be in Liskeard around 1857.
2. Thomas Quick & Elizabeth Mills known to be in Halsetown, St Ives around 1875.
3. Joseph Quick & Elizabeth Allen known to be in Beach, St Ives around 1887.
Many thanks
Trinklady
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 23, 2017 14:28:35 GMT -5
I think it would be of some help if you could expand on this a little. For example, what makes you think any of these people were married? Of the three 'marriages' you mention there is a 'possible' marriage at Okehampton in 1871 for Thomas Quick and Elizabeth Mills however Thomas might equally have married the other female on that page - Emma Elston. The other groom on this page was Thomas Sparks who might equally have married either Elizabeth or Emma. Actually, in this case it appears Thomas Quick did indeed marry Elizabeth Mills at Okehampton Reg. Dist. September Qtr 1871. In the first few years after this the following births can be found in the GRO Index with Mills as the mother's maiden name:- 1872 Eliza Quick - Okehampton 1873 Edwin Quick - Okehampton 1875 Henry Quick - Penzance 1878 Elizabeth Quick - Plymouth 1879 Ellen Quick- Plymouth This appears to have been a second marriage for Thomas who in 1881 is age 51 (or possibly 59) and supposedly born at Calstock. There are two earlier children - Mary Ann age 16 born Okehampton and Samuel age 13 also born Okehampton. I so far have not found this family prior to 1881 but it does not appear there is any connection to the West Cornwall Quicks. I can find no marriage for a James Quick and Margaret Dunn so I would need you to supply a little more information for me to work on. I see there was a John Quick born in the Liskeard R.D. in 1857 with mother's maiden name recorded as Dunn but the 1861 Census adds confusion! In 1861 at Liskeard there is the family of George Dought. He was born at Beeralston about 1802 whilst his wife Elizabeth was born at Camborne about 1800. With them is married daughter Margaret Quick along with her son John who was born at Liskeard about 1857/8 - no doubt the child in the GRO Index. There is a marriage in FreeBMD for a George Dought with possible bride Elizabeth Vial. The marriage occurred in 1859 at Stoke Damerel and would appear to be at least a second marriage. In 1851 George Doubt is a widower living at Beeralston with married daughter Jane Andrews and her daughter Mary Jane. In 1851 Elizabeth Veal was living at Perrys Lane Liskeard (same address as with George Dought in 1861) with her husband Robert. Amongst others in the household is a 'son-in-law' named Samuel Dunn age 12 and in the next abode is a James Veal with wife Margaret. Margaret is age 20 and born Crowan so I should think she is the married Margaret Quick with George dought in 1861. The OPC shows a marriage at Liskeard in 1850 for James Veal and Margaret DUNN. But there is no marriage for Margaret Dunn or Margaret Veal/Vial to anyone named Quick between 1851 and 1861. Your last 'marriage' is for Joseph Quick and Elizabeth Allen who almost certainly DID NOT marry. They did have an illegitimate child baptized at St Ives in 1887 but no further relationship as far as I know. I did find Elizabeth in the 1901 Census some time back and identified her as born about 1869/70 at St Ives to Joseph Benjamin Champion Allen and Grace nee Stevens. Joseph Quick was born at St Ives in 1862 son of Joseph Quick and Jane Veal. He married Sarah Ann Champion at Lelant 12th March 1895 and had a further six children. There may be others but only six that I have baptisms for. CT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 4:02:08 GMT -5
Good morning CT
Can we talk about this marriage first in a little more detail?
The illegitimate child born in 1887 mentioned above, was that Jane ALLEN born to Bessie ALLEN? There is no mention of the possible father on the OPC site, is there another baptism where it does?
My source is a reference to the entry in the birth registers, once again received some years ago from a contact in Australia. The birth was registered at St Ives on the 4th September 1887 for a birth on the 13th August at the Beach. The father was Joseph Quick, a merchant service seaman, and Elizabeth Quick formerly Allen from the Beach, and she gave her mark as the informant. I think you are right and that the baptism and birth are the same- I do note that the OPC site records the birth as 3rd August.
With reference to the Joseph Quick of 1862, I have him as you do with six children, with a subsequent marriage in 1923 to Mary Jane Hollow.
Trinklady
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 24, 2017 4:17:33 GMT -5
Further to my last - I was a little frustrated that I could not find Thomas Quick in the Census prior to his marriage to Elizabeth Mills even though it appeared he had been previously married with children. Having taken another look at the problem it seems that the earlier children did not belong to Thomas at all but were children of Elizabeth Mills.
In 1871 Elizabeth appears to be unmarried and living in the Union Workhouse at Okehampton. At the time she is recorded as age 27 and born at Sowton in Devon. Also at the Workhouse with Elizabeth were Mary A Mills age 6 and Samuel Mills age 2, both born Okehampton - these will be the two 'Quick' children from the 1881 Census. There is also an Eleanor Mills age 18 (born Sowton) and an Eliza Mills age 3 weeks who was born at Okehampton and, most likely, in the Workhouse. I would suggest Eleanor might possibly have been a younger sister to Elizabeth. Checking 1861 and I found Eleanor Mills already in the Workhouse along with her mother Ellen and younger brothers George age 4 and John age 1 who had both been born in the workhouse. The mother, Ellen, was age 27 and unmarried and both she and Eleanor had been born in Sowton - the ages of Eleanor and George suggesting the family arrived in the Workhouse around 1855-7.
I am still having trouble locating Thomas Quick but his age in 1881 appears to be more likely 51 rather than 59 and although he stated then that his birthplace was Calstock I suspect he might have actually been born at Exeter. In 1861 a Thomas Quick was at Exeter St Thomas as an unmarried labourer and I suspect he might be the man who married Elizabeth Mills. FamilySearch shows this is likely to be the son of George and Ann Quick baptized at Exeter St David 27th December 1829.
The only Cornish Thomas Quick anywhere near Calstock in the 1820s would have been Thomas Ralph Quick who was born at Sheviock in 1823 (son of Sampson Quick and Mary Ralph) but he died at St Ives in 1846.
Hmmm - maybe not son of George and Ann of Exeter! There is another Thomas Quick born around 1830 at Tavistock who may be more likely to be the man in question. Tavistock is not far from Calstock/Gunnislake and so is a much better match for the 1881 information. In 1851 and 1861 this Thomas Quick was a servant at Great Torrington but I still cannot find him in 1871. The greater frustration is that I cannot find any of this family after 1881 except perhaps for son Edwin (1875) who in 1901 can be found (indexed as Gueck) on HMS RN vessel 'Melita' as an Able Seaman.
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 24, 2017 4:44:46 GMT -5
I have finally solved another minor niggling problem that is now linked to this couple.
19th June 1862 Samuel Dunn Quick of the Borough age 1 buried at Liskeard
He is almost without question another child of Margaret Dunn but I have just found his birth in the GRO Index:-
Samuel Dunn VIAL born June Qtr Liskeard R.D. Volume 5c Page 89 (mother's maiden name not recorded)
This again shows a link to the marriage of James VEAL and Margaret DUNN at Liskeard in 1850. To make things a little easier I will copy my notes about this family from my last post here:-
My one query to you now is the information about James Quick being involved with Margaret Dunn/Vial/Veal. I wonder now if that perhaps should be Samuel?
If it really was a James Quick then, at the moment at least, the most likely candidate I can find would be the son of John Quick and Philippa Teague baptized at St Enoder 26th September 1828. He died at Wangaratta Hospital, Wangaratta, Victoria, Australia in 1893. In 1851 James was a lead miner lodging with the family of William Merrifield at St Enoder but I am not able to find him in 1861. He did have a brother Samuel who married Jane Ann Jenkins Hearn in 1863 but died in 1866 - both events in the Truro R.D.
CT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 7:49:18 GMT -5
Good afternoon
I reckon this is the man... married or not... 36 years in Victoria makes him arriving there about 1857. The John Quick born in Liskeard in August 1857 was the son of James Quick, a lead miner. The mother was said to be Margaret Quick, formerly Dunn.
Trinklady
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 24, 2017 14:20:08 GMT -5
Firstly for Joseph Quick - yes, the child was Jane Quick Allen and my details for the daughter came from the Birth Certificate. And the information on the OPC regarding the date of birth is correct as transcribed - the baptism entry does actually have the date as August 3rd. I did not have Joseph's last marriage but looking at other details I have for him it is quite obvious that I should have! I referenced the Will extract which clearly shows Probate to 'Mary Jane Quick widow'! I will take steps to correct that oversight drekkly. Re John Quick 1857 Liskeard - James Quick son of John and Philippa would seem to be the correct man as you say. But if he left Cornwall around the time the child was born then who was responsible for Samuel Quick Dunn born in 1861 and buried 1862 at Liskeard? CT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2017 2:51:55 GMT -5
Good morning
I am of the opinion that James Quick was the father of the John Quick born at Liskeard in 1857. Then I believe that it is quite probable that James left to go down to Australia. This view is supported by the birth entry for John and the death entry for James in Victoria.
Samuel Dunn Quick was born in 1861 as you say and died the following year. On his death he was said to the son of Margaret Quick - the name of James Quick was not mentioned because I think he was still in Victoria.
The father of Samuel is unknown and unlikely to be a Quick, but if you wanted an educated guess I would look at the 1851 census for that "son in law" Samuel Dunn and consider him a more than strong possibility.
Trinklady
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 25, 2017 3:10:23 GMT -5
I think I had better spend a little time on the Dunn side of this problem. What you suggest here might just turn out to be something that would cause quite a number of people a little more than 'mild discomfort'! After looking at the 1841 Census I am of the opinion that said Samuel Dunn might just be the brother of Margaret Dunn in which case your suggestion would indicate the possibility of ................... an incestual relationship! CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 25, 2017 5:46:59 GMT -5
Another slightly confusing family but I can now say with almost certainty that Samuel Dunn, the son-in-law to Robert Veal in 1851, was the brother of Margaret Dunn and so would be most unlikely to have been the father of Samuel Quick Dunn. William Dunn and Elizabeth Pascoe were married at Camborne 23rd April 1825 and had eight children with eight baptized at Crowan and three at St Blazey. According to the 1841 Census the second child was a daughter named Jane born about 1825/6 however the Crowan baptism register shows this child as John. There is also a baptism for a Nanny in 1830 and then Ann in 1832 but these appear to be the same child baptized twice. The main children of interest are daughter Margaret who was age 20 in 1851 (baptized 18th June 1832 Crowan) and son Samuel who was actually the second son of that name. The first Samuel was baptized at St Blazey in 1837 along with brother John who was about 2 at the time but Samuel only lived 6 months and was buried at St Blazey 27th February 1838. The surviving Samuel was born at St Blazey 22nd March 1839 and baptized 11th September 1839 and it will be he who was recorded as the 'son-in-law' of Robert Veal in 1851. William Dunn was born possibly at Camborne about 1800 and buried at St Blazey 4th November 1838 at the age of 37. Elizabeth Pascoe was born at Camborne in 1803 to John and Alice Pascoe. In 1850 Elizabeth Dunn remarried to Robert Veal/Vial/Viol who was about 13 years her elder. He also had been previously married and moved from Camborne to St Blazey probably around 1830. Robert Viol was baptised at Camborne 31st January 1791 to William and Joanna Vial. He married Elizabeth Goldsworthy at Camborne in 1813 at which time he signed his name as VIOL. There were seven children to this marriage with all born at Camborne except the youngest daughter who was born at St Blazey in 1831. Elizabeth Vial/Viol/Veal was buried at St Blazey 7th March 1843 age 50 and had been born probably at Camborne about 1792 to Ralph and Elizabeth Goldsworthy. Back to Margaret Dunn who is known to have been the mother of John Quick born at Liskeard in 1847 - Margaret married James VIAL at Liskeard in the December Qtr of 1850. James Vial was the son of Robert and therefore at the time of his marriage he was a step-brother to his new bride! Now, having I think successfully dismissed 'son-in-law' Samuel Dunn is the father of Samuel Dunn Quick I have to return to the possibility that he also might have been a son of James Quick. But given James Quick was supposedly in Victoria by the time of Samuel's birth in 1861 I think there is one other possible suspect - James Quick's younger brother Samuel who was born at St Enoder in 1835. As mentioned in an earlier post Samuel married Jane Ann Jenkins Hearn in the Truro district in 1863 and had two children before his death in 1866. I should think that the naming of Samuel Dunn Quick might now logically point to Samuel Quick as the father. EXCEPT for one thing!! - I had forgotten until I looked at the Birth Index again that this child was actually registered as SAMUEL DUNN VIAL! The slight changes in the name are a little interesting and I began to consider reasons for them. I wonder now if perhaps young Samuel was named for Margaret's younger brother Samuel Dunn. I so far have not found Samuel in the 1861 Census and nor can I find an obvious death record for him in the index but it could be that he had either died or emigrated which might have prompted Margaret to name her son after him. The use of the Vial surname when registering the birth is no issue as Margaret would have been 'Margaret Vial, widow' but then the child dies and is registered as Samuel Dunn Quick and I suspect that might infer that the father was a Quick. CT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2017 10:21:35 GMT -5
CT
We are going to have to agree to differ again I do believe. I cannot see one thread of evidence for Samuel Dunn VIAL / QUICK that links him to being the son of a Quick. You would think that if Margaret is calling herself a Quick in 1857 at son John's birth, and in the 1861 census, then the birth for Samuel in 1861 would be that of a Quick birth, and not a Vial birth.
In the death entry for Samuel Dunn Quick, his occupation is given as "the son of Margaret Quick" and I think that is where the surname for him has been derived from. If we remember back to the two daughters of Andrew Quick, you will remember that both were named as daughters of Andrew Quick, even though in the instance of Mary Quick (1850), Andrew was already deceased, and they were not known as the daughters of Andrew's wife Elizabeth. I think that if a Quick had been Samuel's father then he would have been known on the death entry as son of Mr Quick. The reality is in my opinion, he was the son of somebody else... somebody who knew Margaret.
I am guessing the birth entry for Samuel would be interesting if it showed Margaret's assumed name at the time.. i.e. Margaret Quick, formerly VIAL... DUNN ?
Trinklady
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 25, 2017 14:13:28 GMT -5
AS the birth is registered as Samuel Dunn VIAL I should think you would find there is probably no reference to the name Quick in the record unless possibly as the reputed father. And as there is no marriage to be found for Margaret Dunn or Margaret Vial/Veal/Viol to anyone named Quick I think that supports my view about the burial. We don't know what happened to Margaret's husband James Vial/Veal so it is always possible that in 1861 Margaret was still regarded as his wife. I know she appears as 'Margaret Quick, married' in 1861 but that does not necessarily mean she had actually married a Quick. After all, son John in 1857 was illegitimate as was son Samuel Dunn Vial in 1861! Margaret would not have been the lone ranger in telling a few porkies about her marital situation in those days!! Also interesting is that neither Margaret nor son John can be found in the 1871 Census. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 25, 2017 14:56:02 GMT -5
They can't be found under any of the currently known names but there are other possibilities.
Just in case you run across it there is a marriage in the June Qtr of 1857 at Birmingham for a Charles Quick to a Margaret Dunn. You can safely ignore this as they registered the birth of a daughter also at Birmingham in the December Qtr of 1857 .... just a few months after John Quick was registered at Liskeard. And in 1861 Charles and Margaret can be found at Sheffield.
Having eliminated that possibility I have found another. There are a couple of Ancestry Trees that have 'our' Margaret Dunn first married to James Vial at Liskeard then to Charles Quick at Birmingham and then to Nicholas Johns Sarah at Truro in 1864. Charles Quick is out .... but the marriage to Nicholas Johns Sarah is still a possibility.
For the Record:-
December Qtr 1864 Truro R.D. Nicholas Johns SARAH Margaret VIAL
The other couple on this record were William Rail Dowrick and Thomasine Harris who can be found in the 1861 Census.
Nicholas and Margaret Sarah went to New Zealand where they had five children. Nicholas Johns Sarah was baptized at Germoe 3rd May 1835 to Thomas Sarah and Mary (nee Johns) and in 1861 he and younger unmarried brother Edward Sarah were at Liskeard with their married brothers Thomas and John.
More and more interesting - according to this Ancestry Tree there was another child attributed to Nicholas Johns Sarah and Margaret prior to their marriage, a daughter named Elizabeth Margaret Sarah. However on checking the GRO Index I discovered that this child was registered as Elizabeth Margaret QUICK!!! - mother's name not recorded.
So, Margaret registered son John Quick in 1857 as Margaret DUNN and then in 1861 appears in the Census as Margaret QUICK. In 1861 she has a son registered as Samuel Dunn VIAL with that son buried in 1862 as Samuel Dunn QUICK. The following year we find the birth of Elizabeth Margaret QUICK registered at Liskeard with no mother's name recorded and as this child apparently went to New Zealand with Nicholas Sarah and his wife Margaret it must be considered that she was yet another illegitimate child of Margaret. Even more interesting in this scenario is that the marriage in 1864 is for Nicholas Johns Sarah and Margaret VIAL!!!
I really need to get a few hours sleep now so I will pursue this further later today at which time I will try and check some more New Zealand records.
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 26, 2017 3:44:42 GMT -5
Okay then, hopefully I can now settle most of the issues with this family! Although I have not yet been able to find a passenger list for the family of Nicholas and Margaret Sarah it is now clear that they did emigrate to New Zealand and settled at Hakaru in the Northland. It is possible that passenger lists still exist but there are many for New Zealand that have not been transcribed or indexed. I won't list them all here but most of the family died at, or near, Hakaru and are buried in St Michael's Cemetery, Hakaru. These records can be found in the Ancestry Collection 'New Zealand, Cemetery Records, 1800-2007' by searching on the surname 'Sarah'. This all pretty much confirms that Margaret Dunn never married anyone named Quick although she certainly had one son to James Quick. I believe that although registered as VIAL at birth Samuel Dunn QUICK was probably also fathered by a Quick. And now we can also add a daughter Elizabeth Margaret QUICK who was born at Liskeard in 1863. John Quick and Elizabeth Margaret Quick both took the surname SARAH after their mother's marriage in 1864 and both married under that name in New Zealand. You may question whether Margaret Dunn, the mother of these children, was the same person who married Nicholas Sarah at Truro in 1864 and I must say that I was concerned enough to want more information before I was satisfied. That additional information was found in the Cemetery records. Amongst the burials at St Michael's, Hakaru is the death and burial record of Edwin Henry Sarah in 1897. Edwin was age 31 when died 8th May 1897 and he was buried two days later. This birth cannot be found in the New Zealand records so I checked back to the GRO Index and found the following:- I emphasize this, particularly the mother's maiden surname, because the marriage is recorded as being between Nicholas Johns SARAH and Margaret VIALThere is a bit of an unknown factor here although Nicholas Johns Sarah is probably the father - but the marriage took place in the December Qtr of 1864 at Truro and the birth of Edwin was registered at East Stonehouse also in the December Qtr of 1864. He was undoubtedly an illegitimate child but the chronology involved and the place of registration of the birth may be an indication that they left for New Zealand soon afterwards. I won't go into a long post with all the details of the family in New Zealand but the details are easy enough to find. You could also check Ancestry Public Trees for the name Nicholas John(s) Sarah which will also point to the sources I have used. My one final point before closing is a preemptive one .... I checked FreeBMD for all instances of marriage for Nicholas Johns where there may have been a Margaret as the bride. The result was just ONE and that is the one at Truro quoted above. OH yes, and just one more 'just in case you ask' points - I have also checked FreeBMD for all instances of marriage where the groom surname was SARAH and the bride was DUNN. The answer to that one is also ONE - a Joseph Sarah was married at Plymouth in 1875 but the two potential brides were BLAMEY or STADDON - it was the other groom on that page who was a DUNN. That means the only possible parents for Edwin Henry Sarah would have to be Nicholas Johns Sarah and Margaret Vial nee Dunn as outlined above. CT
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Post by jacob on Oct 28, 2017 9:19:42 GMT -5
I see that even though Samuel Dunn Vial was registered as a Vial at birth you have said in the previous post that it was probable that he was also fathered by a Quick. Have you found any proof of this since your last post CT?
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