Elizabeth CURNOW (1783-1828)

[robyndundas]

Hi

I'm new here and hope I am posting in the right place. 

I am looking for ancestry on Elizabeth CURNOW (1783-1828).  She was married to James THOMAS (1778-1853).  They were married on 11 April 1814 at Ludgvan, Cornwall. He died on 29 March 1853.  She died on 3 December 1828. They are buried at St Euny Churchyard, Redruth.  James' baptism date is 10 May 1778.  His baptism took place at St Uny, Redruth. They had a son, Henry who was born in 1817.  I don't know if they had any other children. 

I need Elizabeth's parents to confirm who my great great grandfather is.  The William Curnow that we know of turned up in Hill End, NSW in about 1871 and went missing from Hill End/Katoomba, NSW in about 1873. He was born in 1843 in Cornwall. His son, William Curnow, born 1872 at Hill End, NSW is my great grandfather. 

DNA is pointing me to this Elizabeth, but I cannot link the DNA to other family trees without knowing more about this Elizabeth. 

I hope someone can assist me as I have searched Ancestry, My Heritage and Find My Past and I can't find her birth details. 

Looking forward to hearing from someone, 

Robyn Dundas
Blue Mountains, NSW
Australia 

[sue]

Hi

I'm a little confused.

Have you arrived at GGfather William Curnow 1872 Hill End NSW from family information then records?

If you have, then I presume you know his father was a William Curnow from the birth record. In which case you have the mother's name from that birth record? And from there, do you have a marriage record for William Curnow the elder, and is there any useful information on there?

How do you know the birth year of 1843 for the father William Curnow?

I ask, because there were many William Curnows!

Then, I may be missing something, but how are you jumping to a connection with the marriage of Elizabeth Curnow to James Thomas in Ludgvan 1814, and then to the burials of James Thomas & his wife in Redruth in 1853 & 1828 respectively? And what source are you using for the 1817 birth of a son Henry, yet you have no other children to them at present?

I can see a James Thomas in 1851 Redruth age 73 widowed mine agent born Perran, which may equate to those Redruth burials...

Then in 1841 looks like the same James Thomas has what seem to be children Mary 25, Catherine 20 John 15 & Isaac 15 present. Some of those baptisms are readily identifiable in the OPC records.


I note from www.cornwall-opc-database.org that at the 1814 marriage in Ludgvan, both James Thomas & Elizabeth Curnow were Of This Parish, witnesses Hannibal Curnow (ignore him, he was parish clerk) & Henry Curnow. In my own records, I have a note that Henry Curnow's signature is very much like the signature at the marriage of Loveday Curnow in 1813. Loveday had a sister Elizabeth baptized 1794 Ludgvan...

Then in the years immediately following the 1814 Ludgvan marriage, there are a string of baptisms at Ludgvan to James Thomas wife Elizabeth, some where the father is a farmer, some where he is a miner....

I'm trying, then as I say, it could be me, but I'm confused as to how you have established your line back from William Curnow 1872 NSW through records Nor how the leap to an Elizabeth Curnow comes into play, other than there is an indication of some DNA link perhaps.... With some more information, i may be able to help, taking it step by step....

Perhaps others can make a better stab!

Sue

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Robyn - Like Sue I am a little confused as well but my confusion begins with the supposed birth of Elizabeth Curnow which you show as 1783.

The Elizabeth Curnow who married James Thomas at Ludgvan in 1814 was actually born at Ludgvan in 1793 to Henry Curnow and Loveday Warren. Elizabeth died at Ludgvan and was buried there 2nd March 1839. I don't know anything about James Thomas except that in 1841 he gave his age as 50 so, with the rounding down, he was born sometime between 1786 and 1791.

After checking my database I can now see that your William of 1872 at Hill End was the son of William Curnow and Ann Elizabeth Lamplough who married at St James' Church Sydney 30th January 1872 with both being resident at Tambaroora at the time. William Curnow was proprietor of the Victoria Hotel, Reef Street, Hill End in 1872.

I'm afraid I have no idea of when or where the elder William Curnow was born or when or where he died. If, as Sue has requested, you can provide some evidence of the birth of William in 1843 then it might help.

CT

[sue]

Robyn, may I just add that the respectable-looking website hillendfamilyhistory.com has a Wm & Ann Curnow as publicans additionally from 1875 to 1878, so I would suggest perhaps not gone missing in 1873...? Although I do see, searching trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper , that at the time of bankruptcy 1873 Wm Curnow was said to be "temporarily at Sandhurst Victoria, hotelkeeper".

The references on hillendfamilyhistory.com look like they may have come from official records such as BDMs, or possibly newspapers.

Sue

[robyndundas]

Thank you so much for helping me with my mysterious great great grandfather.

I think it would have helped if I had given you all the information to start with.

Part A – What I know

My direct line that I know is:

My father: Robert John Crotty (1930-2016) - born and died at Katoomba, NSW
My grandmother: Ellen Louisa Curnow (4 Jan 1897- 7 Jul 1960) - born Dapto - died Katoomba
My great grandfather: William Curnow (11 Dec 1872- 13 Jun 1947) - born Hill End - died Katoomba
My great great grandfather: William Curnow - no birth or death details - date or location

For the mystery William, I have:

Publican licence – place, hotel names and dates at Tamaboora and Hill End, no other details, some dates as listed below. I have a marriage certificate (30 Jan 1972) and a birth certificate of William (born December 1872). There are no useful details about the father, William except the birth certificate says he is 29 years old and was born in Cornwall. Therefore year of birth most likely is 1843. The details on the certificate are a bit dodgy as we know Ann was 42 years old but she lists her age as 39 years old and there is also something funny about a declaration made after the birth.... Also the 1 in 1871 looks like it has been changed to a 2, I think. Maybe the young William was born in 1871 and they changed it to 1872 so he would be born in wedlock. They also travelled all the way to Sydney to get married and then put no details on the certificate at all other county of birth, ie Cornwall and that he was a Soap Manufacturer (that sounds unlikely...) Trove also has details of the bankruptcy of William and Ann in 1873.

William was apparently “kicked out” in about 1873, but he seems to be around a bit after that. Maybe clearing up the bankruptcy and property in Hill End.

The Hill End Family History website has William and Ann having pubs in 1872-73, with William being the publican and licensee. From 1875, Ann is listed as the publican and William as the spouse. I believe he wasn’t with her then from family oral and written notes history. Ann also had a hotel in Araleun, NSW prior to moving to Hill End, NSW.

Ann then moved to Hartley Vale alone and had a pub there in 1879. William is not in the picture then. She also has the Katoomba Hotel, Katoomba in 1881. She is definitely alone there as well.

hillendfamilyhistory.com/history/occupations/c/

Part B – Finding William Curnow (1843 – 1919) and trying to link him to the Hill End William

I have found a William Curnow, born 1843 in Gwennap, Cornwall. I believe he arrived in Victoria in 1863 on the SS Auckland, possibly meeting with his uncle and his family who were living in Sandhurst (now Bendigo, Victoria).

As we know, William is listed as having a hotel/inn in Hill End in about 1872. One of the photos in the Holtermann collection, which is in the NSW State Library is of his hotel. Below is the link to a photo of the Victoria Hotel, Hill End tiltled Group outside William Curnow's Victoria Hotel, Reef Street, Hill End, New South Wales, ca.1872 [picture]. Please compare this photo with the general store photo discussed soon.

nla.gov.au/nla.obj-148058751/view

Anyway, this William is definitely placed in Sandhurst (Bendigo) in 1873 as a temporary resident in bankruptcy paperwork.

I have found a William Curnow in Clunes in about 1878, married to Mary Jane Johns. They were married in 1870. It appears two young girls have been born in 1871 and 1873. Is William their father? In two relationships?

I have done some facial recognition imaging and it appears our two Williams could be one and the same. Please see the below link for the other William.

www.justd.com/robson/


Anyway, moving forward to try and confirm this is the same William:

Age: Correct at 29 years in 1872 as per the birth certificate for his son, William born in Hill End.
Immigration: Arrives in 1863 on the SS Auckland, so he's in the country.
Place: Links in Sandhurst (now Bendigo as per the bankruptcy paperwork in 1873 as his uncle and family are there. Clunes and Charlton, where William lived are not that far from Sandhurst.
Employment: Moving between goldfields and surrounds in NSW and Victoria. I have checked and I believe you could get a train most of the way at that time.
Store: The letter work on the hotel in Hill End and the store in Clunes, Victoria are much the same. Even has the full stop at the end of W. Curnow. Please see the links.

nla.gov.au/nla.obj-148058751/view

www.justd.com/robson/

Resemblance: There really is an uncanny resemblance to my father.... as a young and older man. There are photos of William in older age, at the link above. Maybe all Cornishman look the same..... William's hair line is quite distinctive and the beard is the same as in the younger William’s photos.
DNA: I have been chasing three DNA links for Proctors. William's daughter, Amelia Stella from his other proposed family married a Proctor!!! Still chasing this down. I have a 2nd cousin, 4th cousin and 5th cousin Proctor DNA links. They haven't answered my emails.... I have a fairly detailed history of all the other family links and there are no Proctors there. I have honed these DNA links to the Curnow side of the family. DNA through Roger Curnow has also confirmed that the family is probably not from Towednack as we don’t have a DNA match. This fits with a history of family in another area, maybe Gwennap, Cornwall.

I have two DNA cousins (4th -8th) who have a strong Thomas line, hence wanting information about Elizabeth Curnow (1783 – 1828). I am trying to link the family of the proposed William with the known DNA links from other family trees to confirm his identity.
Part C – Problems

William would have had two concurrent marriages in different states. Children were born in 1871 and 1873 to Mary Ann Curnow and 1872 to Ann Curnow. It’s doable. We know he was in Sandhurst in 1873.
My father was trying to confirm William’s ancestry for most of his adult life and I have letters he has written and received from around the world. He would have loved this new internet and DNA age.

Thank you again for the information on Elizabeth. I do love the name Loveday.

I am looking forward to your thoughts on my hypothesis and seeing if I am looking through rose-coloured glasses in order to get a result.

Robyn

[Cornish Terrier]

Part B – Finding William Curnow (1843 – 1919) and trying to link him to the Hill End William

I have found a William Curnow, born 1843 in Gwennap, Cornwall. I believe he arrived in Victoria in 1863 on the SS Auckland, possibly meeting with his uncle and his family who were living in Sandhurst (now Bendigo, Victoria).

This William Curnow was baptized at Lanner (Modern Parish formed out of part of Gwennap) 24th January 1844 to Joseph Curnow and Elizabeth (nee Kendall) who married at Redruth in 1830. William married Mary Jane Johns in Victoria in 1870 and died at High Street Charlton, Victoria 14th September 1919. There were eight children from this marriage:-

Amelia Stella born 1871 Clunes - married Christopher Proctor at Charlton in 1893
Ida Elizabeth born 1873 Clunes - married William Cobham Matches at Charlton in 1908
Joseph Charles born 1876 Clunes - died at Ulverstone, Tasmania in 1935
Clarice Hannah born 1878 Charlton - married John Frederick Callahan at Bendigo in 1908
Liela Jane born 1881 Charlton - married Stephen John Dew at Charlton in 1905
Ruby Kendall born 1884 Charlton - died 1918 at Charlton apparently unmarried
Pearl Rosalie born 1886 Charlton - married Albert John Wingfield in Victoria in 1912
Clive William Horace born 1890 Charlton - married Linda Marion Edwards at Charlton in 1921

It is a little difficult to see this William occupied with a family at Clunes whilst at the same time dealing with bankruptcy in Bendigo.

CT

[robyndundas]

Thanks for the quick response. It would be very difficult to do both, but not impossible depending on the state of his marriage at this time. The bankruptcy was in Hill End and it states he was temporarily in Sandhurst in 1873. Who knows why though?

Anyway, do you have any other ideas of how I can find this William? Have you any records of any other William's both in about 1843/1844 that might fit? I have studied about 30/40 William's and could only find one who fits for 1843/1844.

The other one I thought might be OK was William Curnow, born 1851-1942, son of Michael Curnow and Mary Amelia Edwards who married Agnes Jane Shearman. He is VERY young though to be married to Ann and to run a hotel. He is born in Towednack, which may or may not fit with the DNA.

Is going into the past through DNA and coming forward a viable option?

Thanks so much
Robyn

[sue]

William John Curnow 1851 son of Michael did emigrate to Aus - as did many William Curnows. However he married Agnes Shearman/Sharman 1881 & had a string of children Bullarto then Blue Mountain. I can see no evidence that he would have married in Sydney in 1872 to a much older widowed woman.

I'm afraid you seem to be approaching this in a less than objective manner, which I think in your heart you know!

Without e.g. some wonderful string of naming patterns for children or of course naming of parents on official documents, the way to do this is long and painstaking, finding actual futures for all the William Curnows, born anywhere, of around the apparent known age.

I say apparent known age, because declared ages were flexible and could be out by quite a few years, particularly in the circumstances you describe of the spouse being an older widow of 42 yet who declared she was 29 at the marriage....

I am no expert on tracing ancestors through DNA, and will restrict myself right now to noting that whoever is declared on amy birth certificates as the parents, there has always been a not insignificant % where the father is someone else - perhaps unbeknown (for certain or otherwise) to the named parents.....

I'll throw in a couple of other Williams to see if you've exhaustively pursued those: William Curnow fisherman formerly boardinghouse keeper bankrupted c1897 (Trove) Dapto.

And William Curnow son of single woman Mary, baptized 17 Aug 1846 Towednack of Penzance 1851/61 probably lodger born Madron at Ludgvan with Honeychurch couple seems to be on Q Bee 1864 to Aus age 18 next to Richard Curnow but he is not a brother.... QB arrived 11 Mar 1865....

Sue

[robyndundas]

The fisherman, William Curnow is my great grandfather, the son of the mysterious William. Bankruptcy, unfortunately seemed to run in the family. Although, they seemed to recover very quickly.....

I'll check out the other one, thanks. I haven't seen him before.

What about William Glasson Curnow, born 1845? I went down the line from DNA from Elizabeth tonight and found him. Son of William Glasson Curnow and Loveday Richards. At least he doesn't seem to be married to someone else...

I do know I'm pulling William's out of the air.....

Ann Elizabeth, the first wife was 39 at the marriage date, she was 42. I thought William may have adjusted his age up a bit and she down a bit to make it look like they weren't that far apart in age.

I'll keep looking and thanks for the advice

Thanks so much
Robyn

[Cornish Terrier]

Robyn - 2 years ago I spent a great deal of time on these William Curnows and could find absolutely nothing to link your William Curnow to any family. As Sue says, ages were often very flexible so whilst what you have suggests 1843/4 you do need to widen your focus and look at all other William Curnows born within at least 5 years. You simply have to work on a process of elimination.

Another possibility could be that William was an illegitimate child and actually born under a different name. He may have taken on the Curnow name after discovering who his father was for example.

From 1835 to 1843 I can account for all William Curnows born in Cornwall. There are around 3 or 4 in 1845 that I don't have death or marriage information for and then there is the illegitimate son of Mary Curnow that Sue mentioned baptized at Towednack in 1846. Any of these could be possibilities and on they other hand they might all be eliminated.

As for the DNA match - have you tracked all other lines of your family to see if any of them might be the link?

CT

[robyndundas]

Thanks for all this information. It is very useful.

It's good to know that experts can't find him either, at this stage.

Do you know who the parents of Mary Curnow are?

Could you please let me know who the 3 or 4 in 1845 are?

I will try to track these through DNA.

I have looked at my DNA matches on Ancestry. I have found:

9 DNA matches to Towednack
19 DNA matches to St Ives
36 DNA matches to Redruth
7 DNA matches to St Just
14 DNA matches to Ludgvan

Looking at their trees, assuming they are accurate. There are:

13 DNA matches to people who have the name CURNOW in their tree
28 DNA matches to people who have the name QUICK in their tree
50 DNA matches to people who have the name THOMAS in their tree
20 DNA matches to people who have the name PAINTER in their tree
4 DNA matches to people who have the name BOLITHO in their tree
4 DNA matches to people who have the name NOALL in their tree
1 DNA matches to people who have the name TREWHELLA in their tree
1 DNA matches to people who have the name BARAGWANATH in their tree
23 DNA matches that have ROACH in their family tree.
50 DNA matches that have RICHARDS in their family tree.

I don't know if this means much,

Looking forward to hearing about Mary,

Robyn

[sue]

Robyn

Sorry, I misread your post giving Ann Elizabeth's marriage age as 29, when in fact it said 39. Eyesight!

If you work through all the Cornwall records for the Penwith area - OPC, Census, not forgetting newspapers - you will see that it is a distinct possibility that the mother of Wm bptzd 1846 Towednack of Penzance could be Mary who also has Ellen bptzd 1844 Towednack of Amalebry, and Charles 1851 who is with his mother Mary in 1851 census. Mary goes on to marry Henry Cook in Tavistock Reg District, and they reappear later in the Penzance area.

As daughter Ellen was with granny Mary in 1851, that Mary being widow of William and they married in 1815 Towednack, there is no immediate link to the Elizabeth Curnow who married James Thomas in 1814 Ludgvan - but then I am confused as to which Elizabeth Curnow you think you have DNA links to, since as CT has pointed out, the Elizabeth Curnow of that 1814 marriage was 1793 - 1839, not the dates 1783 - 1828 you are quoting which equate to Elizabeth buried Redruth the wife of a different James Thomas! It seems to me you may be taking some details off other people's online trees that are, as is so often the case, quite simply erroneous and leading you up a garden path!

I understand that you would really like to identify Wm Curnow of the 1872 marriage to Ann Elizabeth, but sometimes these things can't be done from available information.

Sue

[robyndundas]

Oh, wow!

I will take a more measured approach in the future.

The Elizabeth Curnow I have links to has a son Henry ( born 29 November 1817)at Ludgvan and husband, James Thomas (1778 -1853). They are buried in Redruth.

Henry Thomas, their son married Sedwell Thomas (1812-1887). They immigrated to America. They had quite a few children, one of them is James Oates Thomas, born Ludgvan (1840-1844).

This Elizabeth and her line is linked to me through DNA with two separate people in America.

Do you know who this Elizabeth's parents are? This would be a significant breakthrough for me.

GEDmatch says that Cynthia, one of the links from America is at 4.6 generations from me.

Back to Mary, do you know who her parents were?

Thanks so much again. It's wonderful to have access to people who know what they are doing and aren't just tramping around in the dark!

Robyn

[zibetha]

Hi, Robyn,

I am going to weigh in here with the idea that DNA can be a great clue but sometimes hard to work with. I am struggling with a match to a woman here in the US, her daughter and her nephew. All strong and 4th to 6th cousin level ties out with the centiMorgan strength. I just can't "get there." 3 of her 4 grandparents were Cornish, and her tree doesn't go back too far back. I managed to connect it VERY distantly to my mother's father's side of the family, but I have 6+ shared matches telling me it's on my grandmother's side. When I have 9-10 people shown to be connected by DNA, I am interested!

Old fashioned way, it took me 15 years to find a great-grandfather's family. I was misinformed as to where the family lived and was looking for a birth record that does not exist. He was born in Indiana after the 1880 census was taken (so he never appeared with his family) and births were not registered at that point in time. I eventually started all over and worked with the three different states where he thought he might have been born. I knew his stepfather's name (he was known by that last name) and that of a brother. Period. He was reunited with his brother 60 years after they had last seen each other. I did a very loud happy dance when I got the copy of his brother's obituary from a library in Indiana that tied the whole story together.

Also had a great-grandmother from Sweden. This summer, 20 years after starting my family tree, I found her family. That was complicated by wrong place of birth information, not knowing she was born before her parents married (they did all travel to the USA together, and I have DNA matches confirming I am related to both of those great-greatparents) and the timing was such that patronymics were falling out of use. That meant I was looking for the wrong last name altogether on her father's side. Whew!

Don't give up, and use any piece of information you can find.

Zib

[robyndundas]

Hi Zib

Thanks for that information. It does seem quite daunting, especially after going down so many rabbit-holes.. That's part of the fun though, isn't it?

I am lucky in that my father's maternal side of the family is the only Cornish part of my family. So that narrows it down quite a lot.

I also have a few cousins from different sides of the family that have had their DNA tested, so I can narrow down further from this information.

I hope it doesn't take me 20 years...

Robyn